To wonder why we treat our Junior Doctors so badly?

[alfredomuretto]

These people have likely been the very brightest in their school, got very high grades, struggled through 5 years of university (£9k fees). Then they get to enjoy two years of being a junior doctor. They have to work very long hours, in appalling stressful conditions, direly understaffed, with nurses treated just as badly. Then they get a starting salary of £27k.

Why aren't we valuing them better?

@TheNavigator
Agree the sheer snobbery of some (not all ) of the posters on this thread is astounding.
Unfortunately lots of people go into medicine because of its “high status”.
Many other professionals are bright and incredibly academic some earn loads some don’t.

Ghanagirl

"Lots of doctors are motivated by money more so than nurse plus are condescending as lots of posters have demonstrated"

Thanks for the solid generalisations. May be best that you aren't working with doctors any more, I imagine it wasn't collaborative for either party.

@MontStMichel - best ones I can think of off top of my head are:
Headache, duration several hours, not taken any painkillers.
Coughing child, had a cold (no fever or anything else) at 3am (we thought you'd be less busy...)
Man who needed condoms.

Medical "desk" speciality.

It's not about being motivated by money, but having enough money coming in that you can live near enough to your job, pay for childcare, parking, commuting and some form of downtime escapism without being stressed about it in addition to the inevitable work stress...

In my past as a city lawyer it was all set up to minimise stress other than work stress- laundry service on site, canteen serving breakfast, lunch and dinner, deliveroo type services if working late, taxi home paid for if after 10pm, and secondment only if wanted...

YANBU. Junior doctors are woefully underpaid and overworked. It’s dangerous. They work well beyond their shifts regularly to the point of breaking because they have to. They are heroes.

hopefulhalf how on earth are you on £110k 4 years post CCT? If this is even possible it can only be because you are doing 13/14PAs/ week and have several clinical excellence awards. You posted this on a different thread the other day an I just thought it was a mistake. As a Cons you start on about £74k, it takes years to get to the max (I’m nearly 10 years in as a consultant and I’m still way off £110).

Sorry hopefulhalf just read your answer

NHS. Not enough money. Not enough value for humans. It’s the reason I decided not to go to medical school after all. For all those going on about six figures a low six figure salary (which many don’t even get) isn’t really adequate compensation for 15 years of study and training in an emotional draining profession with unsociable hours. Doctors are really under paid in Britain.

All doctors are treated appallingly, consultants less so. Nurses are treated considerably worse. When people ask me if I’d like my children to do medicine I reply “no, but I’d actually pay them not to do nursing”. IMHO it’s the worst job in the hospital. Over the years the responsibility they’ve been expected to take on hasn’t been reflected in their pay, and once they have DC if they don’t have family to look after the DC they don’t even earn enough to pay for child care. It has a very low glass ceiling. They don’t get get paid break time (although their overtime is usually paid- the opposite of junior doctors). I’m the dd of a nurse and a consultant myself. I would do everything I could to prevent my own DC doing nursing. Overworked, underpaid and under appreciated.

Absolutely. I would actively discourage my child becoming a nurse. I love my job but it isn't worth it. Our responsibilities are huge, I can't remember the last time I got a proper break and we are doing the job of 3 people

We also are massively disrespected because we are expected to pick up the slack from the rest of the workforce. No porter ready? Nurse will do it. No pharmacy tech? Leave it for the nurses. Cleaners are too busy? Nurses will have to do it. We aren't allowed to be 'too busy'. We have to get it done and if we don't we end up in the shit. The government don't help they're continually adding to our workload because we are an easy target, now expecting us to spot things like terrorism and risk of knife crime and threaten us if we don't.

@theNavigator

The ‘kind’ of people you want saving your life has NOTHING to do with social class- although trust mumsnet to jump straight to that conclusion- 🤔 I’m not middle class and neither is DH so pipe right down!!!

The ‘kind’ of people you want saving your life (as I thought was obvious in my OP) are those who achieved incredibly high grades (the ones medical degrees insist on as basic entry requirements!) You’re asking students of a certain calibre to pick the option that was pay them least, treat them badly and telling them they should be glad to do it 🤔

DH was motivated to help people, instead he gets almost daily abuse from patients who are fed up with the NHS and think they deserve better.

My point was that if they continue this way, the NHS will lose the majority of those who wanted to be Dr’s either to moves abroad or better careers and then they’ll either have to drop entry requirements or standards!

Dr’s aren’t the only job hard done by, totally get that. But they’re one of the worst in terms of demanding a certain calibre (academic results...etc) but refusing to compete with other professions on a similar level!

Give over, the full quote was '£40k might be a lot of money to some but not to the kind of people you want saving your life!!'

So it was all about the people who are the right type to be doctors not thinking £40k was a lot of money - which assumes a level of privilege, does it not? The 'type of people' not to consider £40k a lot of money must have grown up with money - or what other explanation/excuse can you come up with?

I took it as, if you want highly educated dedicated people improving and saving your life, you need to put your money where your mouth is. The sheer effort, amount of continual study and responsibility, 40k isn't a lot to encourage folk

Ghanagirl

I did not say work harder. I said do medicine instead of nursing degree!!!

Sorry where has this 40k come from ? That is a mid-range registrar salary (without on call, more like 60 with) so aged early 30's 5ish years after graduating, it's not the celing. Fulltime salaried GPs are on 80ish, top rate speciality doctors 70. Very few doctors with more than 5 years experience are on less than 50-60k. (talking ft here obviosly)

@thenavigator

🙄 oh lord!

I’m going to guess that you didn’t leave college with 4 A/A*s at Alevel - that’s fine neither did I. But I had several friends who did (from a range of background) and they were exceptionally aware of what careers were open to them and the salaries/benefits that came with each.

🤔 Infact I clearly remember a very bright friend of mine (who’d only been able to go to college because of EMA payments as her mum had four younger children and no job) telling me she wouldn’t consider medicine as she would earn FAR more in finance! So actually, I don’t really buy into the idea that it’s only middle class kids who care about money. Personally I think those who grow up poor (myself included) care much more about money...because we know what it’s like without it!!

If you’re good enough to be a Dr, you’re good enough to earn 3x as much in another profession, regardless of background!

£1 isn’t a lot of money, but you would think it was pricey for a Ice cube!! It’s all comparative - £40k is ‘a lot of money’ but not to someone who could easily be earning £80k- people know their worth (especially intelligent ones) 🙄

@prequelle

I’m relieved to see that some understood what I was saying without strapping on their social classes boxing gloves! 🙈😊

It’s not all about the money but there’s no way you would stick it out without the salary increases. It’s knowing that your salary is going to go into the 6 figures that keeps people going

The point is that people who are working really hard, serving others, with responsibility for life or death shouldn’t be worrying about money. This is true for all skilled medical staff, ambulance staff, police and firemen. We need to respect and look after our public servants.

There's worrying about money and worrying about money though isn't there ?

It's a bit tight, bring sandwiches, pasta bake type dinners at the end of the month, doing 241 deals and kellogs coupons for days out tight (I have been there in the early reg years, especially when working pt)
Or pre-paid meters, food bank worried (I would say very very few doctors have ever been in the second category)

Well of course @hopefulhalf; that would be a real failure of our society if that was the case for people on whom we are depending for our wellbeing! Seems like a few nurses are going that way, and that is a scandal.

Bloody hell, this thread really shows... as HCPs we don’t need the public to know Jc down our morale, we do that well enough ourselves by infighting .

Thankfully lots of staff do have the attitude that we are all in this together so may as well get along.

I think you’ve nailed it Namenic, in so many public sector professions the government is all about recruitment and doesn’t care about retention. Of course it’s easier to recruit a load of people into training. As PP say there is so much demand to get into med school. You can then sell the sound bite of ‘training more doctors / whatever profession’. It’s much harder to fix the problems with retention and this is where public support just isn’t there.

‘knock down our morale’ that was meant to say