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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Radical feminism/ trans community

127 replies

vegpatch · 12/04/2019 08:08

AIBU to ask someone to explain feminist views on trans people please? I would really appreciate a variety of stances, preferably in a non-confrontational thread Grin as I don't feel I have a proper understanding of it all and would like to. Thank you

OP posts:
BuzzPeakWankBobbly · 12/04/2019 10:26

There's always a common theme on these threads

Poster(s) reply with comments like "Read everything you can, ask questions, make your own mind up..."

Someone comes along and says "No, don't read anything, don't look directly at anything! Don't even breathe near anything! Because....TRANSPHOBIA!"

Hmmm, wonder who sounds more reliable here...

SmileEachDay · 12/04/2019 10:30

And the same posters right off any reading as “biased” and “anti trans”

KissMeBunty · 12/04/2019 10:31

This thread is a perfect example of why it is really difficult to make an informed decision about this. People will link to websites with a clear bias which supports their view. When you are undecided, where do you go for actual unbiased information?

ZebrasAreBras · 12/04/2019 10:36

When you are undecided, where do you go for actual unbiased information?

Science.

The rad fem position is that biological sex exists, and cannot be changed. Biological sex is observable scientifically.

If any trans-activist can provide a similar body of science to show that a "gender identity" exists, then I'd like to see it.

SmileEachDay · 12/04/2019 10:37

I mean Zebra there Is that Nature article 😂

ZebrasAreBras · 12/04/2019 10:37

All the rest is opinion and feelings.

You read around the subject - just as you would any political issue. And make your mind up.

Merename · 12/04/2019 10:41

I agree that the feminist boards are full of rage. Many of you here are saying how angry you are. It’s fine to have your opinions and to feel angry, but I do not feel the feminist boards represent me as a feminist. They are pretty one sided and a generally a ‘club’ of women with the same opinions on trans and womens rights, and the challenge is very strong and intimidating when you don’t agree. It’s not a place I want to spend time for long.

SmileEachDay · 12/04/2019 10:41

When you are undecided, where do you go for actual unbiased information

You read as much as you can from lots of sources and you make your own mind up - there is no such thing as a totally neutral news source.

Scientific studies are often a good starting point - but always worth checking who is funding them.

ZebrasAreBras · 12/04/2019 10:42

Smile Grin

There is quite a body of pseudoscience being built up - specially tailored to gender identity.

My advice would be to steer well clear of anyone who talks about "girl brain" or "boy brain" - the science just isn't there. This sort of thinking is used to rigidly impose gender roles on people - something that radfems have always resisted - and is probably why we're all this mess now.

Boys can like Barbies and dresses. Girls can like cars and football. End of. It doesn't mean they should transition their bodies to match a societal-imposed gender role.

BertrandRussell · 12/04/2019 10:42

“Of course no one would object to trans people having houses - what an odd statement to consider necessary.”

I do consider it necessary. Trans people suffer discrimination at a very “base line” level-housing and employment being just two examples. The public discourse seems to be about the extreme ends of the bell curve. Not what happens to people in day to day life.

SmileEachDay · 12/04/2019 10:50

Betrand is the discrimination faced by trans people re housing different to the long-standing issues LGB (more particularly L.and G) people have had? Or is it under the LGBT “umbrella”?

GodDammitAmy · 12/04/2019 10:54

I'm just delurking to ask something, I hope I'm not being offensive to anyone. Genuinely curious.

So a man with a penis and a moustache like Alex Drummond can call himself a woman whilst wearing a skirt and rocking a rather significant beard. Alex can then say they are expanding the bandwidth of womanhood because they like to fix cars.

Why can't Alex say that Alex (sorry, don't want to misgender and I'm not sure how Alex identifies) is expanding the bandwidth of manhood because Alex likes to wear make up and feminine clothes?

BertrandRussell · 12/04/2019 10:55

“When you are undecided, where do you go for actual unbiased information?“
You read and listen. To all sides. Then make your mind up. Trouble is there isn’t a huge amount of science on either side......

SmileEachDay · 12/04/2019 10:57

Trouble is there isn’t a huge amount of science on either side......

There’s a big body of science that says you can’t change sex.

tellmewhenthespaceshiplandscoz · 12/04/2019 10:58

Fuzzylilac an excellent summary and whilst we're not a hive mind I think many of our individual views would be similar.

The obvious serial killer/Other Bad Humans aside, I'll make time for anyone and the way you identify makes no difference to me however the second that person deliberately start to threaten the rights, safety and dignity of girls and women I'll have a problem with them.

I disagree there are so so many informed, educated and articulate posters on FWR (unfortunately not me Smile), a few are on this thread and many take time and effort to post a huge variety of sources, articles, academic papers. Those of you who haven't seen them are cherry picking your reading and skimming past them.

Yes sometime these boards can get angry and shouty but there is a lot to get angry and shouty about right now and quite frankly like many other women I'm bloody tired of sitting meekly, putting my hand up politely to be heard. It's time to stop being polite.

And if you want examples of real bile, vitriol, and toxic conversation there are plenty on Twitter where TRAs are actively encouraging their followers to punch people like us in the throat, hoping we die in a fire or are raped to death. If you honestly think MN is vitriolic by comparison your judgment is pretty fucked.

BertrandRussell · 12/04/2019 10:58

@SmileEachDay- sorry, I don’t follow?

BuzzPeakWankBobbly · 12/04/2019 10:58

GodDammitAmy Why can't Alex say that Alex (sorry, don't want to misgender and I'm not sure how Alex identifies) is expanding the bandwidth of manhood because Alex likes to wear make up and feminine clothes?

Because it's easier to get the women to shove up and make room for Alex than it is to make men accept the "expanding the bandwidth" line.

ZebrasAreBras · 12/04/2019 10:59

Why can't Alex say that Alex (sorry, don't want to misgender and I'm not sure how Alex identifies) is expanding the bandwidth of manhood because Alex likes to wear make up and feminine clothes?

Exactly the questions that radfems ask.

Somehow, Alex thinks that by saying Alex "identifies as a woman" Alex actually is a woman.

It provides Alex - who is basically a heterosexual, but gender non-conforming male - a nice job at Stonewall though - while rendering the word "woman" meaningless.

SmileEachDay · 12/04/2019 11:01

Betrand - maybe I misunderstood- what did you mean by “there’s not a huge amount of science on either side?

birdsdestiny · 12/04/2019 11:04

Its funny isnt it that it's a website mainly used by females that gets called bigoted aggressive etc. I hope the people that are saying this are also saying it on the stonewall twitter feed , you should see what they were saying over there about The Times article on the concerns over the tavistock clinic. I presume all the people on the stonewall twitter are all bigots too.

Fazackerley · 12/04/2019 11:06

You should read pistonheads! Not one dissenting voice and actually tons of really genuinely transphobic stuff. That was what peak transed me actually. Seeing really horrible comments about transwomen and not one tra on the site.

This was a couple of years ago, not sure if its any different now.

CarolDanvers · 12/04/2019 11:14

You didn’t misunderstand smile Bertrand likes to pretend they don’t understand in order to get you explaining yourself so they can pick apart your points without actually having to come up with a cohesive argument themselves. My Dad used to call it being a contrarian but who really knows 🤷‍♀️?

BertrandRussell · 12/04/2019 11:46

“Betrand - maybe I misunderstood- what did you mean by “there’s not a huge amount of science on either side?”
@SmileEveryDay - I meant that there isn’t, as far as I know, a lot of science on dysphoria being an actual physical “thing” that is best dealt with by transitioning rather than a psychological thing like other dysphorias best dealt with by psychological techniques. The post I didn’t understand was this one “Betrand is the discrimination faced by trans people re housing different to the long-standing issues LGB (more particularly L.and G) people have had? Or is it under the LGBT “umbrella”?”

SmileEachDay · 12/04/2019 11:50

Betrand is the discrimination faced by trans people re housing different to the long-standing issues LGB (more particularly L.and G) people have had? Or is it under the LGBT “umbrella”?”

I meant just that - is the data on the discrimination faced by the trans community re housing separate to the LGB data or were you talking about discrimination against the whole LGBT “group”? Just interested in the figures.

ByGrabtharsHammarWhatASaving · 12/04/2019 11:51

I think a lot of the problems around this debate is that it's being driven by a tremendous sense of urgency due to the medical treatment of children (one side saying "act now! quick! suicide risk!" and the other side saying "stop! immediately! these treatments are dangerous!") and the legislation changes which effect women but which are being decided without consulting us. Thanks to #NoDebate this is also largely happening in echo chambers. On Mumsnet the feminist boards are largely just used by like minded people now, and the TRAs mostly seem to use Twitter and have blocked any opposing opinions. The problem with #NoDebate is that you can't actually stop people from talking about stuff, you can only stop them talking to you about it. That immediately stops any chance of finding a middle ground and forces opinions to become more polarised.

Within the radfem community you'll find a wide diversity of views - everything from people who personally don't have a problem with mixed sex spaces but are advocating on behalf of those who do, people who think that it's OK for some spaces to be mixed by not others, people who want a third space on all occasions, people who are fine with the current GRA but oppose self ID, and people who find the whole concept of being transgender so dangerous and offensive that they want to repeal the GRA entirely. There is no consensus on this stuff between radfems. The only general consensus is that we want the rights of women to be held equal to the rights of trans people, that we don't believe this is currently the case, and that we want to have a public discussion around that.

Amongst the trans community you get equally diverse opinions. Some transpeople believe that sex and gender are separate and that although they are and always will be the sex they were born they would like legal and social recognition as if they were the opposite sex. Some believe that sex and gender are the same and therefore if you have a female gender you must also be, literally, of the female sex. Some believe that gender is a social construct which basically means sex role stereotype, but believe that these stereotypes are the ultimate markers of male/ female, not the biology that they commonly associate with. Some believe that gender is an innate and essential thing, but ultimately non physical thing, kind of like a soul. Some believe that gender is biologically determined and manifests physically and that we will one day be able to test for it. Some believe that to be transgender you must have gender dysphoria, others disagree. There are many many more belies and opinions about this out there. So a very wide range of opinions on what is meant by the words "gender", "sex", and how these terms intersect.

And I personally am happy to have an ongoing philosophical debate over the meaning of these words, just as I'm happy to debate with theists over their ideas about a soul or an afterlife. But I feel very strongly that until there is some kind of agreed definition and coherent narrative around these ideas we shouldn't be basing legislation and medical policy on them, especially as that medical policy is being written by groups with a financial interest and used on children.

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