Radical feminism/ trans community

[vegpatch]

AIBU to ask someone to explain feminist views on trans people please? I would really appreciate a variety of stances, preferably in a non-confrontational thread as I don't feel I have a proper understanding of it all and would like to. Thank you

• take a piss, not miss. Sodding autocorrect.

I don't feel it's a trans thing. I think it's about protecting girls and women. If everyone is allowed to self ID as female and access female spaces then women automatically become more vulnerable. It won't just be trans people using the changing room but perverts that want to watch women and children undress.

Our local council leisure centre has communal changing segregated by sex. If there is a naked person walking around with a penis in the changing room how will you know if they are trans or male? How will your kids know the difference between predator and trans?

BottleOfJameson
I hope you have reported everything you have described.
MN moderation policy is very strict - probably the strictest on these issues than any other forum I have seen or heard of.

I had no awareness that it 'attracts the ire of transactivists

I think the post above yours might give you a hint of that. 😁

endofthelinefinally

There’s no point feeding it, as you’ll not get a coherent answer.

The feminist discussions I've seen about trans issues have been generally filled with bile and rage

Hope you reported them then.

Okay.

The crunch basically came with the proposed Gender Recognition Action which was (is?) intended to legally enshrine the right of anyone to "self identify" their "gender".

It's obviously much bigger and more complicated than that (not least half the world have confused sex and gender) but the questions are "Is womanhood a feeling?" and "What will be the consequences for women's rights if sex/gender is a matter of self declaration?"

Act not Action, and the proposal was for amendments to the existing Act.

“The feminist discussions I've seen about trans issues have been generally filled with bile and rage.”
How many posts have you reported and got deleted? Lots, I presume.

Yes, feminists are very angry about some parts of the “trans debate”. I am very angry about people describing lesbian’s sexual preferences as “genital hang ups”. I am very angry about convicted violent sexual predators with penises being housed in women’s prisons. I am very angry about the possibility of children who do not present as stereotypical girls or boys being put on life changing and untested medication at the age of 8. I am very angry about self identified trans women taking spaces in the Boston Marathon reserved for women. I am very angry about rhe extraordinary attacks on Martina Navratilova for her stand on women’s sport. Those are all things I am angry about.

Things I am not angry about? Trans people being afforded the same legal protections as anyone else. Trans people having jobs and houses and the right to the quiet enjoyment of life. Trans people wearing whatever they like and presenting any way they like. Nope- really pleased about all that.

Here's an article just published where the author is looking for common ground.

quillette.com/2019/04/11/ignoring-differences-between-men-and-women-is-the-wrong-way-to-address-gender-dysphoria/

I think it becomes an issue when people strong identify as "feminist" or any other political or social label. It becomes very easy to see people not part of that group as "other" and not apply any normal human empathy towards them.

Yes, when women are labelled “cis” by men, it definitely feels like othering.

veg

I think most of what i would say has already been said by one poster or another

I would echo everyone else who has said take a look at some of the threads on Feminist chat...im sure you are already doing that

Then if you still have a question you can ask there if you like, people do answer

I reported one post - I'm not sure if it got deleted or not and I don't spend my time hanging around on the feminist board as I didn't like the discussions there. They weren't evidence based and tended to reflect a very one sided point of view. I didn't make it my job to police the boards or change people's points of view there because quite frankly it's not a good use of my time. I didn't find the discussion informative - no link to interesting papers or research, just a lot of hot air. Perhaps the discussions I've seen were not representative but I wasn't willing to hang about finding out to be honest.

Yes, when women are labelled “cis” by men, it definitely feels like othering.

It doesn't feel like that to me at all. It's an accurate label. Please don't imagine you speak for all women. You don't.

Well it sounds like you’ve done your own filtering there, bottle, so all good

Mumsnet is an absolute hotbed of transphobia dressed up as “feminist concerns” by a lot of people who have probably never met a trans woman in their life. It’s absolutely poisonous. I will be instantly piled onto by some of these people with their disingenuous troll questions despite the fact that I’m one of the groups they claim to be most “concerned” for (lesbians.) Try this video instead if you’d like to see their arguments countered in a sensible way:

OP you are not going to find mumsnet very helpful from an educational point of view. The most vocal opinions here are very one sided.

You'd be much better off getting yourself along to your local LGBTQ++ organisation and asking for some literature to educate yourself with.

“Perhaps the discussions I've seen were not representative but I wasn't willing to hang about finding out to be honest.”
So you don’t actually know what you’re talking about. Fair enough.

OP quite a lot of people come onto Mumsnet and start threads like this. They would be able to find answers to any genuine concerns on the "Break it down for me" thread as previously suggested.

I would be wary of engaging with posts like this, given the recent press coverage mumsnet has experienced claiming it is a hotbed of abuse and harassment. Much better to signpost the OP to existing threads.

Brace yourself Wonko ;)

Things I am not angry about? Trans people being afforded the same legal protections as anyone else. Trans people having jobs and houses and the right to the quiet enjoyment of life. Trans people wearing whatever they like and presenting any way they like. Nope- really pleased about all that.

That's so generous of you! Of course no one would object to trans people having houses - what an odd statement to consider necessary. Obviously though more is needed than to allow trans people food and water. They are some of the most vulnerable members of society, both in terms of mental health and suicide and as victims of assault and prejudice. So more needs to be done quite clearly.

no link to interesting papers or research
Dont forget no research is allowed though.

@WonkoTheSane42

Absolutely agree!

It boils down; to the people who are ok with mixed sex spaces and services think no one else is entitled to them, and get very angry and dismissive about any discussion.

Hello vegpatch I think lots more people are on your journey now that the mainstream media are starting to report the issues.

Many of us here went from Yes, of course I support trans rights over to Wait, what? THAT is not a trans right.

The thing that makes each of us go Hang on a minute that's not right is different but there are themes you'll get to see (sports, dodgy blokes using trans as a way to get at women, sterilisation of gay children, biology denial, refusal to discuss etc).

Even if you are a troll hoping to goad some angry posters into saying mean words about trans people (I doubt you are), there will be plenty of lurkers who will still benefit from reading more of the debate.