Radical feminism/ trans community

[vegpatch]

AIBU to ask someone to explain feminist views on trans people please? I would really appreciate a variety of stances, preferably in a non-confrontational thread as I don't feel I have a proper understanding of it all and would like to. Thank you

[ZebrasAreBras]

Vegpatch - it's a huge subject, but the basic issue is gender self-identification and the push for this to become law. The bottom line is that any man will be able to "identify" as a woman, and legally be treated as a woman.

Most people I come across in real life can immediately see the implications of this - on women's toilets, changing rooms, hospital wards, sports, prisons etc - which I guess is why trans-activists have gone down the "No Debate!!!" route and are silencing women who want to talk about these implications.

If you genuinely want to read up on this from the rad-fem point of view, I would recommend this as a starting point:

angrybirdroar.wordpress.com/2018/03/28/watching-the-terfs/

And this as advanced reading

janeclarejones.com/2018/11/13/the-annals-of-the-terf-wars/

The latter is very informative and entertaining, if you want to sit down with a cuppa and read it.

[BuzzPeakWankBobbly]

Also compare and contrast.

This is how women are trying to make sense of this issue and make our voices heard - meetings and grass roots with campaign groups like womansplaceuk.org/

This is how people are trying to stop us: terfisaslur.com/
(before you get to the masked protestors blocking people's way outside meeting venues, issuing bomb threats and punching women in the face for daring to speak, naturally)

[Guyliner]

OP there's a lot to read around!

But the Cliff Notes version would be

Radical feminist have always been generally against the idea that men and women should have gendered lives with different roles because they are women or men. There is no obligation for a woman to like knitting, makeup, housework or child-rearing just because she is female. Or for a man to by hyper masculine, want to spend 60 hours a week at work and be naturally aggressive.

They see these things as imposed on us by the society we live. So what is masculine or feminine varies greatly around the world, culture by culture and by time.

So when a person who was born a boy grows up and says they "feel" like a woman, radfems get a bit het up because what does that actually mean?

Iy used to mean someone who had body dysphoria and felt they were in the wrong body.

Now it means someone who feels the gender side is wrong but they can feel totally OK in their own body.

So a man with a penis and a moustache like Alex Drummond can call himself a woman whilst wearing a skirt and rocking a rather significant beard. Alex can then say they are expanding the bandwidth of womanhood because they like to fix cars. And radfems find that a wee bit offensive.

The other recent change that has made this all such a big deal is that Stonewall is calling anyone who is gender variant or kinky part of the trans umbrella.

So while you used to have tiny minority of perfectly reasonable normal transexual women who got on with their day, had their penises cut off and made every effort to pass. You also used to have "perverts" who were not transexual and did not want to be seen as women but did want to wank in their wife's knickers or expose themselves in their panties to women on the side of parks.

These two very different groups have now been lumped under the same umbrella and understandably a lot of women aren't happy to think we should all accommodate all of them. Particularly when we had been accommodating the first group all along. This isn't new.

[Damntheman]

I suspected you were about to submit a link to a questionabe website Carol and low and behold... 4th wave. Hardly an unbias scientific source.

There have been scientific studies published in scientific journals which admit the difficulties of studying such rates. But still conclude that trans people are at a significantly higher risk of suicide and report far higher percentages of suicidal ideation.

[BuzzPeakWankBobbly]

"There's a really high suicide rate wrt trans people."

CarolDanvers No there isn’t, this has been debunked. Let me see if I can find the info.

Comprehensively, openly and transparently. Unlike the actual fake claim.

Yet, disgustingly, the activists continue to peddle this, which is also against Samaritans guidance on how to discuss suicide (basically, talking about it like this makes more people contemplate it. They don't care - it's just one more for their fake numbers)

www.transgendertrend.com/the-suicide-myth/

[dorisdog]

Long time feminist and trans rights activist here. I have a few trans friends and I'm very glad that - gradually - their lives are being made easier and more comfortable (and less risky) by the acceptance and visibility of trans people. (And obviously the hard work of lot of brave trans people)

[Damntheman]

Also not an unbias site Smile. fairplayforwomen is clearly anti-trans.

[S1naidSucks]

As a trans woman I freely admit that there may be rare circumstances where it might be appropriate for me to be excluded from a women-only space

Who gets to choose? You or the females in that space?

[Damntheman]

Also not an unbias site Buzz. Seeing a definite trend here..

[Damntheman]

As a trans woman, she IS a woman in that space s1Naidsucks

[FuzzyLilac]

I didnt think it would take long for the mud slinging and insults to start

Women having opinions, concerns and the space to discuss issues that affect them has always been met with abuse in one form or another.

I refuse to defend the feminist boards to anyone that believes it is just vile bile.
Those who hold that opinion are not worthy of my time or energy.

[FamilyOfAliens]

I hung around for quite a while then realised the feminist board was an echo chamber for a particular point of view.

Have you heard of Terfblocker, by any chance?

[CarolDanvers]

I suspected you were about to submit a link to a questionabe website Carol and low and behold... 4th wave. Hardly an unbias scientific source.

Oh there’s more links. Do you want them all? I have a sneaky feeling you’d foot stamp and shriek they are ALL lying!!!” about any^ link that was posted though so...

[aprarl]

I think the main issue on the feminism boards is: do women have the right to anything just for them?

Hospital wings, refuges, scholarships, sports, changing rooms, toilets, societies, awards, a label for their sex, sex-based rights - anything?

If not, why not?

For me and others, a unisex society is unjust because essentially it's letting males dominate again and shove women back.

There should be third spaces, but still single sex ones.

We should also be wary of the massive social contagion increase in young people right now, which is leading to permanent life altering surgery.

[FamilyOfAliens]

As a trans woman, she IS a woman in that space

What is your definition of woman?

[ZebrasAreBras]

I also think it's interesting to pick a particular point of law out - as it demonstrates the sexism so well.

When the Gender Recognition Act 2004 became law - and allowed people suffering severe gender dysphoria, as diagnosed by a doctor, to change the sex on their birth certificates and legally become their chosen sex - there was an exception.

Want to know what it was? It was primogeniture - the right of the first born son to inherit the family estate.

That's right - the posh boys in Parliament and the House of Lords made sure that no woman could take the family estate from their younger brother by identifying as a man.

Meanwhile, they happily gave away everything women had worked for for decades to gain an equal footing in society - so everything from women's changing rooms, to sports, to all women shortlists for political places in parliament - was fair game for males wanting to identify as women.

[CarolDanvers]

I suppose all the medical staff that quit the Tavistock Clinic stating grave concerns with how the transitioning of children was being handled are just lying and biased too are they?

[S1naidSucks]

As a trans woman, she IS a woman in that space s1Naidsucks

So the born as women females have no say? Is there a line? If the transwoman has had the full operations and treatment to appear as a woman, then I am happy to share some spaces with them. Do you feel that the transwoman with a penis should have the same rights to share female spaces. What about the women who feel unsafe in those circumstances? Do they have any right to object?

[FamilyOfAliens]

And that neatly shows that despite constructing a law around it, the politicians don’t actually believe anyone can change sex. Doesn’t matter what else they claim - it’s clear as day.

[FamilyOfAliens]

That was to zebra.

[stopfuckingshoutingatme]

Well they clearly don’t like each other so much

Weirdly I was thinking about this today and I think where the trans have got peoples back up is via adopting a fairly aggressive and ‘male’ stance to getting the things that ‘women’ have . Oh the irony hey

[Guyliner]

Any website that varies from the full unrelenting acceptance of StefOnKnee and Karen Walsh is "anti trans".

[FamilyOfAliens]

Just google “IT’S MA’AM!” for the definitive example.

[SmileEachDay]

trans people are at a significantly higher risk of suicide and report far higher percentages of suicidal ideation

You know what is also true? Around 60% of people with anorexia have suicidal thoughts, many go on to attempt suicide. You know how we don’t treat this? By agreeing that their perception of their body as “wrong” is correct. We give them appropriate support to deal with their SEMH struggles.

I have no idea why it has become fashionable to not afford trans people the disable treatment. Instead, we seem hell bent on affirmation at all costs.

[Guyliner]

Also OP with regards to suicide rates or violence against them.

Besides the fact that the suicide rate has not only been debunked but also is a dangerous myth because groups like Samaritans say that comments like these actually leads to suicide...

Lots of groups do have high rates of violence against them and high suicide rates.

But we still do not allow those groups access to women's spaces.

Gay men.

Disabled men.

We wouldn't let any of them in women's spaces even though they are obviously at risk in men's spaces. Should we?