Anon. members - Forums open to court action??

[justasking111]

Was quite shocked to see this. Will this be a test case? Mumsnet is such a tame well run site compared to the comments I see in the online press. Is the writing on the wall for free (cough) speech or is it a culling of trolling. Personally I think that something needs to be done, some folk have no filter or are just plain nasty.

news.yahoo.com/transgender-activist-wins-court-ruling-forcing-parenting-website-reveal-identity-alleged-online-abuser-121317596.html

OK, you seem to be completely missing the fact that I am saying you have absolutely no intention of "listening" to other points of view.

Is this because I said your definition was 'crappy'?

So if you put across an argument, someone counters that argument and then you don't have anything to come back with, then that means the other person 'hasn't listened' and there is 'no point in engaging'?

Um... No that's not how this works.

Oh and if I were a 'lurker' then I would be thinking 'I really want to know what LimeKiwi's definition of woman is now!'

Is it defamation
Yes or no

I wouldn't know. I'm not a legal bod.

Hi LimeKiwi,

Out of interest, are you going to answer the question that has been asked multiple times now

Is it defamation to state the birth name of a trans activist?

Without just giving another question or deflecting how nobody listens.

Must have cross posted with you, just did before your post.

Ah sorry, you answered. You didn't know. So different related one, do you think you should be able to talk about previous convictions of someone prior to transitioning? Just curious to see where you draw the line...

I don't think any of these defamation cases have much to do with the GRA.

The individual could argue that revealing past names was transphobic harassment (and has done so) but it wouldn't be harassment unless it caused serious harm to their repution.

The information in the harassment case linked to in the OP would show up on anything more than a basic DBS.

DBS rules for trans applicants are here:

www.gov.uk/guidance/transgender-applications

Although it says this procedure is 'in accordance with' the GRA, it doesn't seem to be necessary to have a GRC to make use of it. Basically if you don't want to have previous names and 'genders' revealed on the form to your employer, you ring the sensitive applications team and they presumably add any previous convictions to your current name.

Obviously if 'Sally' has a rape conviction it's a bit of a giveaway.

This is relevant to one of the cases I linked earlier - Trans offender seeks to wipe crimes as a man from record

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/trans-offender-seeks-to-wipe-crimes-as-aman-from-record-qfk5w68lb?shareToken=eaa0f0a44d245a04abfee73a82bbe40a

The government guidance doesn't say what happens if you don't follow the 'sensitive applications' route and just don't declare previous names on the form - presumably the same as any other person who has changed their name and doesn't declare. I'd hope the police would be onto that.

What are MLR and KYC?

Know your customer and Money Laundering Regulations or Requirements ? Taking your birth certificate etc when you are opening a bank account.

It’s something I’m familiar with in my role. We have to go to huge efforts to make sure the client is who they say they are and to demonstrate that we have identified them properly. The requirements are tightening all the time.

MLR = Money Laundering Registration
KYC = Know your customer
both requirements for all financial transactions like bank accounts and tax returns and investments

As an MLR registered person I'd turn down the business of anybody who was incomplete about their name history no matter what the reason

If someone was incomplete about their name history would you know?

Pencils
We have to ask - passport, birth certificate, driving licence, proof of address
and if we are unhappy with any of it, have to turn them down as a client.

Possibly we wouldn’t know. If their birth cert had been changed. Seems like a flaw in the regulations to me.

Is it defamation to state the birth name of a trans activist?

For something to be defamation it has to cause serious harm to a person's reputation so the short answer is - only if they've done some bad stuff under their birth name.

But then a court would have to look at defences to defamation such as 'truth' and 'public interest'.

Presumably though you can’t claim defamation if it’s true even if it harms your newly minted reputation.

Is a birth certificate always required Talkin, or is it an option on a list of documents?

pencils
I tend to go with passport and photo driving licence
and I do google / companies house checks on all clients
(hence how I know that one of my clients had their name changed under witness protection)

It’s an option. We usually ask for passport and utility bill though the latter are hard to come by these days.

I google too. Interestingly google
Now includes a reference to the search having been cleaned up if it has been. Speaks volumes.

Now includes a reference to the search having been cleaned up if it has been. Speaks volumes.
TOO RIGHT

Haha! That was more apt than I thought. I was actually thinking of someone else but yes it’s been applied in this case too

If a person had a 'spent' conviction then a court would have to decide whether any facts about the conviction had ceased to be legally true.

To change name and/or 'gender' on a driving licence you just need to make a statutory declaration.

www.gov.uk/id-for-driving-licence

One of the Man Friday chaps changed gender with no hassle and changed it back again just as easily, just by stating it on the form, with no supporting evidence.

manfridayuk.org/2018/04/20/self-id-and-driving-licences/

Passports are far more difficult - you need a deed poll and a letter from your GP.

www.gov.uk/government/publications/applying-for-a-passport-information-for-transgender-and-transsexual-customers

In the current climate, how many GPs would risk saying, 'no, I don't believe you're trans, I won't write you a letter'?

Pencils
TBH I might just ask for a water bill as getting those bar stewards to update account details on a name change is like pulling teeth

If I changed my name and transitioned, are you saying I could:

• Get a new birth certificate with my new name and my sex marker changed
• Get a new passport, ditto
• Driving license, ditto Etc.

If this is correct Pencils and Talkin how would you know of any previous aliases as my paper history would be complete for my life, surely?
Does the above affect NI numbers too?

Am I missing something really obvious?

The harm principle has been modified by an entirely humanitarian servant of justice to include speech. This means that you can legally argue that words are a form of violence if someone says so.

Offence taking is offence making if you like.