Anon. members - Forums open to court action??

[justasking111]

Was quite shocked to see this. Will this be a test case? Mumsnet is such a tame well run site compared to the comments I see in the online press. Is the writing on the wall for free (cough) speech or is it a culling of trolling. Personally I think that something needs to be done, some folk have no filter or are just plain nasty.

news.yahoo.com/transgender-activist-wins-court-ruling-forcing-parenting-website-reveal-identity-alleged-online-abuser-121317596.html

Acceptance without exception is a key demand.

titchy

Well I certainly don't show my private parts in a changing room, in the scenario you describe I think the trans woman is unlikely to confront anyone with her genitals either. You have no idea if a person getting changed next to you was born male or female, unless you ask to see proof, which I sincerely hope you don't. But I think there are plenty of people including me who couldn't care less if someone is naked in a changing room, man or woman, they're just getting changed.

You’re deliberately missing the point and imo being deliberately goady that, since it’s impossible to say which transwomen pose a threat same as it’s impossible to say which men pose a threat, of course, it’s necessary to exclude them all.

Nothing illustrates more vividly the subordination of women than men deciding who can be one.

there are plenty of people including me who couldn't care less if someone is naked in a changing room, man or woman,

Equally plenty would. Sexual assault victims for example, Muslim women, those with young girls.

Can you not understand that? You still award priority to the transwoman?

Karen white, as I understand it, was assessed in line with current procedure.

I've just checked to see if I had remembered correctly. The telegraph reported:

If an inmate identifies as their non-legally recognised gender, a local Transgender Case Board will meet to assess, but must take account of the previous offending history. However, that did not take place in this case. A Prison Service spokesperson said: “We apologise sincerely for the mistakes which were made in this case.

So no, procedures were not followed.

there are plenty of people including me who couldn't care less if someone is naked in a changing room, man or woman

Well I certainly do! Any woman I have spoken to does as well. Where are all these women who feel perfectly at ease in various states of undress/naked in front of male strangers?

Can you not understand that? You still award priority to the transwoman?

It not priority, it's equality.

I've never been to a pool or gym that doesn't offer some individual cubicles. Hopefully in time there will be more individual cubicles so that no one is caused any distress.

Where are all these women who feel perfectly at ease in various states of undress/naked in front of male strangers?

In all my years I've never had to even undress in front of another woman in public as there's always been individual cubicles available in the ladies, even in communal gym type areas.

It's not equality at all. The transwoman can use changing rooms for their biological sex. That distresses and excludes no one. Allowing them to use female spaces excludes many.

And plenty of council gyms and pools have open plan changing!

Not the same and not equal though.

Women are told to put up and shut up for transwomen. Where is the equality?

In our gym there are separate shower cubicles but no hooks for your towel so you need to leave the on the benches opposite and scuttle over to grab them after a shower. Changing areas are openplan with no private areas.

Besides - why the hell should I have to change in front of a male? Especially ones who have stamped their feet and threatend suicide to get access to this area. But not taken any medication/had any surgery or even had a bloody shave.

The fact that White had previously raped women obviously means being placed in a women's prison wasn't suitable. Whether this means all trans women, who commit say burglary, shouldn't be placed in a women's prison, I don't know. Discussion is needed by people who are more expert than me.

No, the fact that Karen White is a man should be enough to place him in a man's prison. You do not have to be an expert in these things to work it out.

It not priority, it's equality.

Equality? What is equal about being a woman being locked up with a known rapist?

Why are so many of you so willfully negligent that you will accept a known rapist in a women's prison because he says so?

Do you believe everything people say to you? Do you not have any reasoning skills at all?

And plenty of council gyms and pools have open plan changing!

Even if some do (which they probably do to be fair, just because I haven't been in one doesn't mean they don't exist after all)
Do people really take much notice of what bits are underneath someone's towel?! I really don't look that closely and I don't think (well I hope not anyway!) that others do either.
If they're minding their own business and juggling their wobbly bits about underneath a towel so nobody can see (which is what I'd be like in a communal area lol) then they're not doing any harm imo

Still waiting for an answer to the DBS / MLR / KYC issues

LimeKiwi, when it comes to defining woman in a way that includes TW and women but excludes TM and men, you say People have tried on other threads, so it's a bit disegenous to claim "they never do."

They do. Any trip to the hundreds of other trans threads clearly show that. They're quickly shouted down and ridiculed though if it's an answer you don't like. Which I'm sure you know really.

This isn't true. I have been on the Feminist boards for years and no one has ever provided a definition. And it's by no means limited to Mumsnet. I've been following the debate across social media and in real life for about 7 years but I've never seen a definition.

It's noteworthy that you make these claims while failing to provide the definitions you say are readily available.

Saying "a woman is anyone who identifies as a woman" - which I've seen put forward - tells us nothing about what a woman is. A snargle is anyone who identifies as a snargle leaves us completely in the dark as to what a snargle might be, just as saying a dyslexic person is anyone who identifies as dyslexic tells us nothing about dyslexia.

My observations from watching those who can't define woman in terms that include TW but who want us to accept TW as women is that in some cases they know their claims are based on sexual stereotypes (so a woman is someone who presents in a feminine way) but won't say so. And who can blame them? They'd get a well deserved dose of ridicule.

In other cases it's just about being nice. TW are perceived as very vulnerable and, female socialization being what it is, some women feel we should budge up and make room for the poor souls.

In both cases exposure to what leading trans rights activists are saying and doing often provokes a change of heart. TRAs often tell women to educate ourselves. However it was educating myself - exploring the many Reddit subgroups dedicated to transgender issues, for instance - that convinced me transgender ideology is misogynist and homophobic. In adults it's a male sexual rights movement.

As for child transition, it's an ethical nightmare.

Seriously? No way do I want to change next to man doing the same. Nope. Why should I?

Women have the right to a space to change without men in the room so why change this now? Because a tiny minority of self centred males want to? So do we let kids drink at 12 because some fancy been? Or allow people to walk around naked because they want to?

which is what I'd be like in a communal area lol

Oh well if you'd be like that then there's no problem is there because obviously everyone is exactly like you

Plenty of people aren't juggling about under a towel, they're happy to strip off and bare all. That might include our quiet transwoman. Whose actions now mean several other users cannot use the gym/pool any longer.

Slow hand clap...

The fact that White had previously raped women obviously means being placed in a women's prison wasn't suitable.

This is an example of where peoples naivety and ignorance puts women at risk.
At the time White was placed in the womens psychiatric hospital, it was not known he was a rapist as he had not been convicted.

He raped a women while on the ward. And was then convicted and sent to prison.

Heres an idea. The women who say they are fine changing next to men should maybe just use the male changing rooms and just say the magic words ‘I’m Fred and I am a man!’. Hey presto, by saying you are actually makes you one. Apparently.

If a trans person wants to be in the correct prison that is ok. As long as they have had the surgeries, take the pills and are fully committed mentally and physically. To put a working penis in a womans prison in White`s case was not wise.

And research is clear - mixed sex changing rooms are more dangerous for women. So no thanks.

This isn't true. I have been on the Feminist boards for years and no one has ever provided a definition

Seriously, look a bit harder - people do try and have. If it's not the answer "woman - biology" or the old fave "woman adult human female" then it's not an answer anybody sees or accepts.

Go on then kiwi.

The women who say they are fine changing next to men should maybe just use the male changing rooms and just say the magic words ‘I’m Fred and I am a man!’. Hey presto, by saying you are actually makes you one. Apparently.

Oh well if you'd be like that then there's no problem is there because obviously everyone is exactly like you

I didn't say everyone was exactly like me, I was just saying what I'd be like.
People probably do just throw everything off, and if they do, I was saying does anybody really look that closely at others private parts? I know I don't!