"Why on earth did you have child(ren) with this man"

[Februaryblooms]

AIBU to think it's a pointless and goady thing to say to somebody who already has children or is expecting one to somebody who (obviously) is a bit of a shit?

I see it so often on MN on here and the relationship threads.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing, but in all of the cases where people have said that to the (usually upset) OP its too late to do anything about it and she's clearly already aware of her poor judgement so it just looks like rubbing salt in the wounds to me.

Thoughts?

I get that there may be some unfortunate occasions of a man changing after pregnancy announcement and contraception failures on one night stands; but the level of it on mumsnet is horrendous.

Perhaps the sanctimonious self righteous posters could stop reading the threads where women have had children with twats. Just saying.

1. I wasn't complaining

1. Not much of a discussion without a counterpoint, is it ?

Why is it sanctimonious to be interested ? I am learning from the replies on this thread . Is that not a good thing ? Perhaps it would make a poster recommend counselling before having another child ? To try and understand why some people get themselves into a situation surely is a good thing ?

The thread has lead off into a sweeping generalisation that everybody who received that comment must have several by the same bloke who has always been shit from day one and now they're pregnant again.

It's slightly easier for people with a certain outlook to justify their comments in those scenarios (not myself obviously, I don't agree it's helpful whatsoever) but let's not forget that those circumstances are not the only ones in which women are asked "Why on earth did you have children with this man"

I agree. I find that there are a lot of unpleasant and none helpful comments on MN which as a PP has said is probably just a way of the poster trying to make themselves feel better that the OPs expense. I'll never understand it. If it's not nice or constructive it's not needed.

It's such a horrible thing to say. I've had it said to me. My response is that I'm glad I did, as if he wasn't their Father, my DC wouldn't be the people they are. And I wouldn't change them for the world.

I actually almost wish that some shit things would befall the smuggards on here. I do. Because you sound clueless, judgmental and sanctimonious and maybe you need some plops of harsh life lessons to understand why people may not be equipped to make the perfect choices as you have managed to.

It’s worth considering too that many women have absolutely no idea what a healthy relationship looks like and have absorbed over decades that if a man doesn’t beat them or cheat on them then they should hang onto him as there’s lots worse than him around. Personally I had no idea that my relationship was as bad as it was till I posted on here. I honestly believed relationships needed work and you just needed to struggle on through once you had children. It took a poster on here telling her husband - a solicitor - what I was going through and he then told her to tell me he would give me free legal advice as they were both so shocked by my story. MN is a singular resource in that it is almost always staunchly supportive of women and gives them a voice and honest advice about what relationships should look like. I didn’t have a clue and I am an educated woman. When a women like that comes for help and sneerily ask her she had kids with him then all you’re doing is just piling a bit more shit on top of the load she’s already carrying.

Think it if you must but keep it to yourself because when you say that you’re saying it for your own benefit not hers.

Please try to remember when you are rolling your eyes at women that some of us are not brought up with boundaries or any knowledge of what a healthy relationship looks like so we fuck it up time and time again

Who have children so they can continue the family line.

When I had a child with an arsehole it was because I was extremely young and I had no idea men could possibly not be arseholes, because I hadn't known that many men that well, and the ones I did were all arseholes!

It strikes me that when you do deal with arsehole blokes they do tend to hide the worst of their arseholery from general consumption, they save that for you in private, so if that's what you've always been used to then I'd say it's a fair assessment that you'd assume all of your friends' and acquaintances' husbands/partners are like that too, even if they appear decent to other people, so it's not a huge stretch to have a child with a bloke who is an arsehole if you assume he's just being a bloke and they're all like that. I mean you can't exactly help not being a lesbian, can you? (And I'm sure, TBH, that the same kind of thing happens in all relationships, it just happens to be easier to explain it away as "Men, what are they like?" thanks to sexism).

And many, many women live like this and don't necessarily have the revelation that some blokes are decent fathers until they have already had several children. Or they realise after the first one or two, but it's bloody horrible and awful to have your worldview shaken like that and for many it's easier to carry on until it becomes so unbearably awful that you just can't.

But also, how exactly are you supposed to judge whether or not someone has the qualities of being a good co-parent before you've even been a parent yourself? It's impossible to imagine what parenting is like before you are one, let alone how it's going to be to parent with another person. I feel like I could outline them and pick out a potential "good dad" now, but that's with the benefit of 11 years' experience parenting, 10 years of reading the MN relationship boards, however many years of feminism and the contrast of a totally useless co-parent and a really great one, and the second was luck really - I was in a shitty place when I got together with DH and if he'd been a wrong'un I'd have been fucked. Who the hell has any of that when they first start TTC? If you were lucky enough to grow up with a good dad yourself and/or healthy relationship models, you're old enough that you've had both healthy and unhealthy relationships - you will probably find it easy enough to make a good enough judgement, but if you're lacking in any of these things then it can be really hard.

It doesn't help to judge other women because they make choices which are based on less information than you personally have.

Surely nobody on earth actively seeks out a total prick and deliberately gets pregnant in full knowledge that he is, a prick.

Ehhh...

Its time to post this again;

''Especially wanted to opine when someone mentioned that abusers can go up to 18 months without showing their true colours. I used to supervise all the DV programs at one of my former agencies, and one of those programs was a batterers‘ intervention program. One night after the group the facilitator (who was my boss, temporarily filling in) called me and said he thought I might be interested in the night's topic. He started of by asking the group if, when they got together with a new partner. they started abusing her right away. or if they waited a while. The vote was unanimous: Oh no. if you start being abusive right away, she'll leave you. You have to get a hook in first, cut off her avenues of escape. get her locked down tight enough that she cant get away first, before you can start. So then he asked them what was the optimum amount of time to wait. That is when the discussion ensured... everyone had a different opinion. So he gave them a task, to come to a unanimous consensus:
''what is the optimum amount of time to wait after starting to date a new partner before you can start abusing them‘?''

And, coldly, calculatingly. they spent the rest of the session debating the issue. weighing the pros and cons. to come up with their final answer: "if you really want to do it right," "if you really want to lock her down so she cant getaway. ' one to two years. Took my breath away. People say abusers "cant control themselves,"they are "out of control,"they are drunk and ‘don't know what they're doing." Bullshit. They know EXACTLY what they are doing. to the point where those guys could methodically weigh the pros and cons and come up with a calculated strategy that carefully closed of all avenues of escape to their partners BEFORE they started their behaviour... because they KNOW that their partners would leave them unless the stakes were too high first.
Changed forever how I think of abusers....''

Don Hennessy - How He Gets into Her Head: The Mind of the Male Intimate Abuser

www.independent.ie/irish-news/men-who-abuse-women-use-the-same-tactics-as-pedophiles-and-ive-never-met-one-who-wanted-to-change-says-author-of-how-he-gets-in-her-head-35681098.html?fbclid=IwAR3DhHBwoGFlAUYZf1smaLFakzVXCHgBkjflWc9_t_3XYn60ZsxlxJW-pKc

Personally I'm now NC with my shit family who taught me that I was shit and didn't deserve anyone nice. I'm teaching my children to have boundaries and model good relationships to them as best I can as a single mum. They know I've chosen to be single because I won't tolerate any crap anymore. They know why I'm NC with my family. The LO will probably never know his dad and there's nothing I can do about that as that's his dad's choice but he's a very happy and bright little boy who is much loved by all in his life. I've never regretted having him for an instant. I don't regret my daughters either. Just my choice in fathers. I can't change the past but I can help shape our futures.

1. I wasn't complaining

2. Not much of a discussion without a counterpoint, is it ?

And yet you were suggesting someone who dislikes the sanctimonious posts should stop reading. Not much of a counterpoint if you try to insist people go away.

the number that have a child with a man they have barely dated let alone got to know to the point of a stable long term relationship is astounding
I agree.

but sticking the boot in when the woman cries out for help and support just seems spiteful and pointless.

Asking why is not spiteful IMO, It's a genuine question.

When I was in an abusive relationship years ago no amount of pointing out how much of a mug I was would have made me leave any quicker.

In which case, the question shouldn't have much impact on you.

I guess everyone sees things differently. If a bunch of strangers could see how crap my partner is from what I've said, then I could take it as a sign they have no vested interest either way.

If you examine the why it can hopefully prevent a reoccurrence in the future. If you avoid the answer to the question, it's really rugsweeping and doesn't help.

If you do some self exploration, it puts you in a better place. You may discover through answering questions that it stems from seeing your own mother in a similar relationship, so you've normalised it.

This then gives you insight and understanding that your own DC could normalise your relationship and repeat the pattern.

I commented on a thread recently and asked the poster if she felt lucky because she thought her partner was better looking, wealthier and more intelligent than her. I was trying to understand why she tolerated the crap. She said I was correct. Myself and others were trying to get her to see that her DD (already suffering from MH issues at 10 yo) was being affected by the relationship.

What you perceive as putting the boot in, is trying to help through getting a better understanding.

I think it's perceived as it is do, because women in that don't want to admit they have any responsibility for the situation and they feel foolish.

Sometimes, you do have to admit you messed up in order to learn and move forwards.

People mess up in all kinds of ways, nobody is perfect, but when your mess up includes the creation of a new life to a useless human being as a father, who was always useless/abusive, you realise that it impacts you and your DC for a long time to come.... and I suspect there may be feelings of guilt as part of that.

I didn't say anything to her but I did internally roll my eyes at someone who slept with her ex to get pregnant with her second because she 'didn't want to be someone who has kids with different men'

Seriously all you do is say what a dick he is - why deliberately do that?

you are NOT being unreasonable at all!

Even when you give those goady types the truthful answer, for example in my case, my mother was neglected my needs and didn't allow me a sense of myself and withheld her approval so unsurprisingly I ended up drawn to the familiar dynamic I had with a disapproving man narcissistic man'' - they don't have the empathy to understand. You give them the answer, the WHY, and they don't have any sort of epiphany.

50% of pregnancies are unplanned, apparently, so it's not in the slightest bit surprising that there are plenty of unplanned pregnancies on mumsnet.

Most contraception with perfect use is only effective to 90something% meaning somewhere around 1 in 20 couples will experience a planned pregnancy each year. Well how many years are you fertile and sexually active for? 20? You do 0.97x0.97 and it only takes 23 years to fall past 50%.

And typical use for most contraception is more like 70-80%. And then there are people not using contraception at all or using it very badly and falling below that typical usage figure.

No, I don't think unplanned pregnancy is something people are automatically lying about.

I don’t think asking a question is judgemental at all . And I am learning a lot from theses posts . But when you are in that relationship that you don’t realise is bad do you not see other relationships around you that are different ? Does that not make you question your situation at all ? Are children sometimes compensation for the bad relationship ? Something to love ? I could perhaps understand that ? Like I said I want to be more understanding of my friend because I could not understand her situation.

I do think some people have very little understanding of how terrifying abusive relationships can be, and how you can be severely emotionally abused without realising it. You believe it's your fault. That YOU need to change. I had no idea I was being abused, and now I'm a single mum. The abuse did hugely escalate and much of it started whilst I was pregnant. I don't regret my son one bit but most certainly wouldn't have had any more children with his dad. So I can see it from both sides.

I would like to feel more empathy , I just find it hard because I am a very black and white person and I know that is a fault. My friends partner for example if he did not like his dinner would throw it across the room . Even that would be a deal breaker for me . But for others obviously it is not .

CherryClarence

A brave post and yes I can understand that .

@violetcharlotte - great response and exactly what my sister used to say about her useless exH.

@SusieOwl4 it's very clear to most that throwing things is wrong. Coercive control is insidious however. It's very covert and sneaks up on you gradually. I found it very difficult to detect.

I did this. I had one baby with a man who was already knocking me about, and very soon after became pregnant again.

The first time was an accident, and the second time, well, even when they’ve chased you round the house until you’ve reached the bed which always feels like a safe place for some reason, because you go anywhere else from there, and they’re strangling you until you’ve almost passed out, you still think the morning after when it’s all calm again that they still love you, and you’re just in some messed-up relationship you can’t figure out yet.

So that’s why on Earth I had children with that man.