Isolation booths

[Pliudev]

Ok I'm ready to be shouted down by long suffering teachers but isn't the use of isolation booths an infringement on a child's human rights? I've read today of a child who attempted suicide while being kept in one of these punishments booths for prolonged periods. And of a boy who spent 35 days in one. What have things come to when schools can inflict this kind of punishment? In both of these cases the children had mental health issues. If parents isolated their children in this way wouldn't that amount to abuse? And isn't it an indication of failure on behalf of schools that there seems to be growing use of this kind of punishment? And how can schools justify fining parents for taking children on holiday if it is ok to suspend their education for long periods in isolation?

I think the children are often treated like friends leading to a false sense of security and then the power is asserted i.e in to isolation. Perhaps just asserting the boundaries a bit more would prevent this extreme approach. Correcting teenagers talking to you like rubbish rather than constantly placating might help. It is really setting them up for a fool in the 'real world' where you don't get away with being offensive and rude, you get sacked or disciplined in a work scenario.

finishers
or an office, when the occupant can move around and go to the toilet for more than 15 minutes a day and can lean their head on a desk or get up and move and don't need to keep looking ahead

You have obviously never worked in a call centre. There are plenty of jobs where adults in booths have restricted toilet breaks, can not get up and move about and can not lay their head on their desk.
You might think this is not an effective punishment, but it is not a human rights abuse either.

It doesn't always help kids with SEN to ignore unacceptable behaviour because of their diagnosis.

Can you point to me where anyone has suggested this? What people have said is you can't ask a student to comply with rules which may be impossible for them then punish them with solitary confinement when they fail (as you set them up to do).

What any particular individual with ASD and ADHD is capable of is totally individual. Nobody is in favour of a child who is having a meltdown and out of control just being left in the classroom. They're in favour of putting proper individualised support in place. Not asking more than a particular individual is capable of and actually supporting them to achieve that.

Also, as a teacher, on a full day I don’t get more than three 5 minute toilet breaks - I can’t go in lessons! I was desperate for an entire hour of Y7 today but there was nothing I could do. I have extremely heavy periods as well. It’s not a human rights issue.

@clairemcnam

It is very rare for there to be an office in which movements are restricted to this level and the very important difference is that an individual has a choice over their environment when at work. Nobody with a bladder issue or who had ADHD and found it unbearable to sit still or sit in a certain position would take one of the very rare jobs where this was required.

They're in favour of putting proper individualised support in place. Not asking more than a particular individual is capable of and actually supporting them to achieve that

I’m in favour of that too.

How do I do that with absolutely no money, no access to expertise and decreasing numbers of experienced staff?

They might have no choice if on JSA.

@CaptainBrickbeard

You're an adult who has had years to work your periods out. Honestly there is no benefit to restricting toilet breaks like that. It's very obviously pointless.

But I think it is completely wrong to compare them to a library setting, or an office, when the occupant can move around and go to the toilet for more than 15 minutes a day and can lean their head on a desk or get up and move and don't need to keep looking ahead.

Well, if you're working in a call centre you can't get up for a wander. And your toilet breaks are timed and monitored. So I would say that its a fair comparison.

But, as we are talking about school children:

If you're a kid in a normal class you can't sit with your head on the desk. Because then you wouldnt be working / paying attention.

If you're a school kid in a normal class you cant get up and walk about the classroom because you feel like moving around for a bit. Because then you wouldnt be working and you would be disrupting others.

If you are in isolation (at any school I've taught in) you've got work on the desk in front of you that needs completing, so you need to be looking at that.

Really, there aren't massive differences between the expected behaviour in the classroom and the expected behaviour in isolation. But because those students in isolation have - usually - not met those expectations the rules are spelled out more clearly and the physical environment is designed to facilitate getting kids to follow those rules / meet those expectations.

or an office, when the occupant can move around and go to the toilet for more than 15 minutes a day and can lean their head on a desk or get up and move and don't need to keep looking ahead

Oh I'd love to see what happened if I laid my head down on the desk at work or got up to go to the toilet. I get a 15 minute break in 5 hours.

Honestly.

And most jobs that are not in an office have restricted toilet breaks because of the nature of the job.

Oh for goodness sake claire actually you are wrong I do have experience of call centres. I didn't say all offices.

You do know working in a typical call centre set up is stressful precisely because people are not actually meant to have such a lack of control as to what they do, for example sitting in cramped conditions and following a script and having to essentially take verbal abuse...
Look it up. That is why some call centres actively screen out employees with a high sense of ego because they are less likely to handle the environment.

Why on earth do you think good (and rich) employers can spend so much money on rearranging offices and allowing people to work remotely or from home (if possible)...partly because they know it makes good business sense to take the welfare of their employees seriously.

That said, yes there are bad and good offices and in many open plans people are free to work move and go to the toilet book a meeting room eg .adults in a labour market can look for better employers.

very different scenario that a child unable to go to the toilet for more than 15 minutes in one school day...

I work in a relaxed environment and my boss still would not be impressed if I laid my head on the desk. Because that would mean I am not working.

Good for you claire good for you.

I have to say I have placed my head on an office desk as gasp horror it was ok.

I have also had a nap in a library and everyone survived

When my child comes home from school bewildered, tearful and demoralised after yet another day in isolation I shall point out all of these things to him. That'll help him feel better. Thanks for that.

DD's school has 20 minutes detention or 2 hours detention.
They don't have isolation.

finishers I did not respond to you in terms of what should happen at school. But there are always on threads like this comments saying that no adults are expected to do these things, when actually they are.
When I worked in a nursery I could not just go to the toilet when I wanted to as there had to be enough supervision. I could usually not even sit down when I wanted to because I had to help kids do things, None of that was down to my boss (although nurseries are often notoriously draconian with staff), but because of the nature of the job.

Personally I think we should ignore what adults are expected to do and focus on kids and schools only.

claire and under law in the UK still all employees are entitled to unpaid breaks which may all turn to dust post Brexit but let's stop conflating adults and children shall we?

Adults are legally entitled to a break after six and a half hours. Longer than some school days

Where has isolation? Prison. I read an article today about a man who was running some outfit from prison and was put into solitary confinement.

I trust my dd's school. She has never yet received a punishment. If she did, I would support the school, because the maximum she would receive would be 2 hours in detention.

No, I do not have a picture, but they were in a row on part of the corridor (or free movement space) Individual glass booths. tbh I didn't pay much attention, we only went to the open evening because it was going to be our 2nd choice school, and to avoid only putting one school on the form. I never had any intention of any of my dc going there.

Funny enough they tend not to advertise the fact. Following the legal challenge it may have changed, I don't know.

Littlechristmasmouse you know full well I included the library in my post.

Anyway stop clutching at straws...

Littlechristmasmouse you know full well I included the library in my post.

Anyway stop clutching at straws...

You have completely lost me, sorry. What library and what straws?

I said:

But I think it is completely wrong to compare them to a library setting
or an office, when the occupant can move around and go to the toilet for more than 15 minutes a day and can lean their head on a desk or get up and move and don't need to keep looking ahead

Recheck your post from approx 23 minutes ago.

You only quoted from the office part and left out my reference to a library

You said

Oh I'd love to see what happened if I laid my head down on the desk at work or got up to go to the toilet. I get a 15 minute break in 5 hours.

Honestly."

Actually I quoted from another poster.

I don't see what difference it makes anyway.

If students behaviour is so bad that they need to be removed from the classroom then I think they should be somewhere unstimulating and expected to sit quietly and do their work.

It shouldn't be entertaining or fun.