To apologise for arguing that discrimination against the Irish 'isn't a thing'

[wheresmymojo]

I was on an AIBU thread months and months ago where someone was talking about 'Irish twins' (used for two children born 12 months or less apart).

I argued that it wasn't offensive because Irish people aren't discriminated against. That I've never, ever seen any disparaging remarks about Irish people except in jest, etc.

Anyway...I just wanted to say: I was wrong.
I should've listened more to the Irish people on the thread and I've learned my lesson there.

With the discussions about the NI border due to Brexit I've been reading up on the relevant history (back to before the famine) and I've been shocked at how our English Govt treated your people. I've been very naive about the degree to which English education misses out some lots of inconvenient parts of our history.

I also commented on several FB threads after the recent Bloody Sunday prosecution and was shocked at some of the comments of other people.

So I was wrong, and I apologise (even if no-one reads this - it's been playing on my conscience).

Following with interest

Not sure about "cutting NI loose" but I used to think it should just reunite with Ireland. Obviously it is massively more complicated than that and I am not sure if Ireland actually wants it, anyway. When we visited in 2004 we thought there had been a lot of investment there and it seemed richer than Ireland. But I've since read on MN that it's the other way round now.

Maybe it would be best off becoming independent and turning itself into a Western European Estonia - within the EU. Or joining up with Scotland as a new entity in the EU.

Better than staying in the UK after a no deal Brexit, anyway.

She also says if she had a penny for every sorry joke or disparaging comment about Irish bogtrotters, paddies, tinkers, navvies, peasants and drunks that people have made in front of her, before remembering she is in fact Irish, she'd be a wealthy woman

My mum (born in Liverpool but Irish background) told me years ago that she was with my dad visiting friends of his (the wife was Northern Irish). They had some other friends over and one of them disparagingly said something about Liverpool being "proper Lancashire before all the Irish arrived". My mum gently pointed out that her maiden name was (a very Irish surname). She didn't know where to look.

This whole thread is about discrimination against the Irish and how it was still around now, and that it's just the English being awful right? Let's not forget unfortunately a lot of modern discrimination is because of the IRA's actions and you can't deny that. What is needed is a way for BOTH nations to move forward rather than constantly wallowing in the past.

I don't remember being taught about the 'potato famine' at all in school; but even most people who were /are aware of it will naturally assume (as the name strongly suggests) that the problem was beyond all human control and caused as a direct result of an extremely poor harvest.

Not a bit of it.

Ans of course I don't equate the IRA with all Irish but this is what leads to ill feeling as it is repeated now with ISIS and large members of the public now discriminating against perfectly innocent muslims.

I'm going to assume you are being intentionally goady, though, because no one, no matter how ill-informed, is that thick, surely.

Possibly not. My mum is Irish, and a as result I've seen first hand just how acceptable it is to express bigotry towards Irish people. Some people seem to think its not just acceptable, but actually desirable.

Good for you for coming back and admitting it, OP! I grew up in the 80s/90s with English parents who frequently came out with horrible anti-Irish sentiments (e.g. that we should solve the Troubles by "nuking" all the Irish). I've noticed a resurgence of that kind of thing as the Brexit fiasco has progressed, e.g. people expressing indifference over any violence caused by the border issue on the basis that "it's not our fault if they all decide to kill each other" .

Most countries have some pretty shameful stuff in their pasts, but I think we have (or have had, until recently) a very strong national myth based around our own superiority and righteousness ("plucky little Britain saved the world", "we have nothing to be ashamed of on race because we abolished slavery" etc). In other European countries that I've studied in, there seemed to be far more willingness to talk about their post-colonial legacy and less of the instant defensiveness and huffy victimhood when the topic comes up.

Rainbow you do get that alot of it isn't 'the past'? This is a real issue TODAY for everyone in Northern Ireland and the Republic.

Bloody Paddys messing up Brexit, who cares if they blow each other up.

Yes, that was a sincere comment I read re the border recently.

Yes and I was trying to explain why some people don't want to let go of Irish bigotry because of past actions. I neither said I agreed with it or did it.

Let's not forget unfortunately a lot of modern discrimination is because of the IRA's actions and you can't deny that.

I do deny that. There was discrimination long before that, it didn't suddenly appear in the 1970s. Whether you agree or not, there is a long history of discrimination and bigotry against Irish people.

OwlBeThere do you know Translations by Brian Friel? That’s a play about how we tried (and partially succeeded!) to kill the Irish language too. It does make you ashamed to be British.

This whole thread is about discrimination against the Irish and how it was still around now, and that it's just the English being awful right? Let's not forget unfortunately a lot of modern discrimination is because of the IRA's actions and you can't deny that. What is needed is a way for BOTH nations to move forward rather than constantly wallowing in the past.

Do explain who is 'constantly wallowing in the past'? Is it in fact you, because you appear to think that anti-Irish feeling is 'explained' by the actions of a single terrorist group which is in no way representative of Irish people at large and which has had a ceasefire since before the GFA?

yy Saskia.

This whole thread is about discrimination against the Irish and how it was still around now, and that it's just the English being awful right? Let's not forget unfortunately a lot of modern discrimination is because of the IRA's actions and you can't deny that. What is needed is a way for BOTH nations to move forward rather than constantly wallowing in the past.

Rainbow, I presume you're being intentionally goady, but what the hell, I'll engage.

You need to educate yourself on the Troubles.

For one thing, the vast majority of the members of the IRA came from NI and so, despite how they viewed themselves, they were British in the eyes of the British government. British when NI needed to remain in the Union, but of course Irish when they were violent. And you thought Andy Murray had it bad with the British when he wins/Scottish when he loses bit.

For another, you seem to labour under the misapprehension that the IRA was the only terrorist organisation operating during the Troubles. You may want to educate yourself about the UVF, UDA and indeed the actions of the British Army in NI.

The (despicable) actions of the IRA are no excuse for anti Irish sentiment, any more than the actions of IS are an excuse for Islamophobia.

Or what Piano and Saskia said, much more eloquently.

With the discussions about the NI border due to Brexit I've been reading up on the relevant history (back to before the famine)

Thank you for doing this!! It opens so many peoples eyes when they learn what the actual history of the relationship is.

And thank you for acknowledging you spoke too soon and were wrong.

RuggerHug We were taught Irish history during GCSEs about all the awful things that happened e.g. Easter Rising, deployment of the troops and Bloody Sunday. That was 10 years ago though..

It would be hilarious how huffy Rainbow is getting on an actual thread confirming ongoing discrimination if it wasn't so fucking stupid.

It happens. We can all make a mistake without the facts.
You are a big person to admit this, let your conscious ease.
If anything the Irish have had the UKs back throughout Brexit, I think the EU would have made a real example of the UK with Brexit.
It is easy to blame others.
It is hard to believe no one considered the GFA when organising Brexit.

Let's not forget unfortunately a lot of modern discrimination is because of the IRA's actions and you can't deny that. What is needed is a way for BOTH nations to move forward rather than constantly wallowing in the past.

The IRA is not ireland.

Those interested in the Scottish side might like to look at ancestryireland.com/scotsinulster/pockethistory/Index.html. My father's Irish family blelieve originally their family name/family or at least some of them came down from Scotland to NI. I have been trying to trace it back/ The flax growers of ulster list of 1796 seems to have a family member on it but I have not been able to go any further back and that so far. www.failteromhat.com/flax1796.htm

For the last time I'm not denying there hasn't been a long history of discrimination, I also don't equate all the Irish with terrorists. I was trying to discuss why I thought there was ongoing discrimination from the British to the Irish, but apparently as soon as you mention anything that's not English are the worst ever you're called all sorts of thick.

I don't think anyone born today needs to feel bad for the nationality they are born to or apologise for it. I am not responsible for what my ancestors on either side did. However, I am responsible for not making ignorant comments and prejudiced assumptions about other people, as that would be racism, sexism and so on and may even be hate speech.

People who continue to be dismissive about "the Irish" or think that "the Irish" are somehow responsible for the mess that is Brexit, or that "the Irish" are to blame for the IRA bombings back in the day are both wrong and displaying prejudice and ignorance and for that they are 100% responsible!

Not thick, ignorant. There's a difference.

For the last time I'm not denying there hasn't been a long history of discrimination, I also don't equate all the Irish with terrorists. I was trying to discuss why I thought there was ongoing discrimination from the British to the Irish, but apparently as soon as you mention anything that's not English are the worst ever you're called all sorts of thick.

No one has said the 'English are the worst ever'. Stop with the hyperbole.

And you did suggest that terrorism is the reason for modern bigotry. You are wrong about that.