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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

How is Great Britain looking from abroad?

408 replies

longwayoff · 01/04/2019 16:37

I've seen various remarks that other countries are confused by our current situation, although surely Ukraine's running it close. Any comments from outside UK mumsnetters?

OP posts:
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5
Gisel · 03/04/2019 16:59

Am I the only one who can't concentrate enough to read long posts quoting multiple posters and linking to external sources.

You were asked ONE FUCKING QUESTION. If you are outside 'Great' Britain, how is 'Great' Britain viewed.

Gisel · 03/04/2019 17:01

Am I also the only dimwit who can't quite comprehend sentences such as:

'The proposals also respond in a realistic and balanced way to the budgetary consequences of the withdrawal of the United Kingdom'

Perhaps I should remove myself to somewhere where people don't speak in riddles.

Gisel · 03/04/2019 17:02

Just say what you fucking mean!!!

Gisel · 03/04/2019 17:04

Whose fucking proposals?
Who are you to decide what's realistic?
Who are you to decide what's balanced?
Please don't use long sentences like 'the budgetary consequences of the withdrawal from the EU'.

Gisel · 03/04/2019 17:06

I've no idea what budget ye're talking about because as far as I know the UK hasn't drafted a budget and the EU can't draft their budget until they can figure out whether the UK is in or out!

THEsonofaBITCH · 03/04/2019 17:06

How is Great Britain looking from abroad?
Like moronic back stabbing toddlers who are throwing their toys out of their pram - IMHO Grin

Gisel · 03/04/2019 17:09

@thesonofabitch

ORDER ORDER!!!

The right honourable colleagues here are speaking.

mbosnz · 03/04/2019 17:13

Every time I talk to friends and family all over the world, I get a variation of, 'well, you know, we all have our troubles - but you lot have Brexit, you poor things'. . .

Followed by 'so what is actually going on'.

How the bloody hell would I know? NOBODY KNOWS!!!!!!!!!!!!

Clavinova · 03/04/2019 19:12

Gisel
Whose fucking proposals?
Who are you to decide what's realistic?
Who are you to decide what's balanced?
Please don't use long sentences like 'the budgetary consequences of the withdrawal from the EU'.

Oh dear - I thought it was obvious that I copied and pasted the whole thing from one document - the EU's Financial Framework for 2021-2027.

I thought the heading:
COMMUNICATION FROM THE EU COMMISSION 2018
made that clear.

Plenty of other posters have written long monologues on pages 12,13,14 etc.

'The proposals also respond in a realistic and balanced way to the budgetary consequences of the withdrawal of the United Kingdom'
Perhaps I should remove myself to somewhere where people don't speak in riddles.

That's handy then - those words were written by the EU Commission and we are (probably) leaving the EU quite soon.

ForalltheSaints · 03/04/2019 19:57

Those of my family abroad often ask what is going on, and scarcely believe how stupid it has become. Even those in Trump's US.

Upthepong · 03/04/2019 20:58

Every thread I look at today has Gisel on it.

TooManyPaws · 03/04/2019 21:22

Please don't lump all those with British passports together as one homogeneous mass. There are four countries in the Untied Kingdom, two of which voted to remain but are being dragged out by the weight of the population in one other in particular. Scotland voted two thirds to remain in the EU, and every council area had a majority to remain. Westminster has constantly ignored the Scots, May reportedly telling Sturgeon that she was stupid to understand Brexit and refusing to involve the SNP in her inter-party negotiations. Scotland needs immigrants and Edinburgh has been battling for years against an immigration policy and department designed for English needs. A few days ago, the utter idiocy of so many was laid bare outside Westminster when Scots MPs were yelled at as "traitors to England". Well, duh. Scots MPs are also heckled to "go home" in the House of Commons itself when trying to represent the voters. Such respect!

During the Independence Referendum, much was made by many of the Tory and Labour members of Better Together that we could only remain in the EU by remaining in the UK. We can see how that went... As Alyn Smith pleaded in the European Parliament, we can only hope that they leave a light on so Scotland can find its way home to Europe, to which it has always historically been linked, unlike England. Free from the corruption endemic in Westminster which votes only for its own greed.

Frankly, I hope for a blue passport, but one that has only the unicorns of Scotland supporting the Royal Arms of Scotland. In a way, I partially welcome the shit storm to further the breakdown of the UK which has outlived its purpose and has ideas above its station in the world, instead preferring to live in a golden past that never actually existed as they believe it to have.

MissConductUS · 03/04/2019 22:53

@mathanxiety

Ahead of any trade negotiation, all interested parties can lobby the Trade Representative and of course the President, as well as members of the House Ways and Means Committee and the Senate Finance Committee. This includes the Friends of Ireland (US Congress) and other Irish lobbying organisations, all of whom are highly integrated with the Irish government. Sinn Fein also has a presence in Washington.

All in all, the chances of the GFA and associated issues being on the radar of an American trade delegation meeting a UK trade delegation might be quite high.

So let's say the congressional Shamrock Brigade lobbies the USTR and others in the executive branch about the importance of the border issue and the GFA. No doubt that there will be agreement from all concerned. Let's now assume the worst case - there's a hard border and the GFA is now on shaky ground. How exactly is that going to influence duties, quotas, enforcement and dispute resolution mechanisms, etc. in a potential agreement? It will very likely be water under the bridge at that point and a political issue, not an economic one. Do you think the administration will seek higher tariffs on Irish butter to express it's displeasure?

MissConductUS · 03/04/2019 23:00

Here's a good discussion of how and why congress has abdicated its role in trade negotiations to the executive branch:

POTUS Rules the Trade Wars. Thank You, Congress. Until Trump, lawmakers could rely on the White House to take the heat for unpopular agreements.

longwayoff · 03/04/2019 23:09

Thanks Gisel, welcome reliefSmile

OP posts:
mathanxiety · 04/04/2019 05:59

Hmm at 'Shamrock Brigade'.

Your basic assumption that the US needs the UK more than the other way round is your problem here, MissConduct.

Trade negotiations were delegated to the Executive long before Trump. The basic mechanisms and the basic processes by which trade deals come into being and then become integrated into the law are still the same.

All trade deals are political, not economic, where the US is concerned, and the details of trade deals are political too, in the domestic context. Hence the huge lobbying industry and the vast sums raked in by lobbyists.

Not sure why the US would seek higher tariffs on Irish butter specifically, or if it even could, since Ireland is part of the EU.

mathanxiety · 04/04/2019 06:08

The 'Shamrock Brigade' is a bipartisan group, making its reach a good deal more effective than the average lobby.

mathanxiety · 04/04/2019 06:14

Since the OP's question was 'How is Britain Looking from Abroad?' here is an op ed from the NY Times:
www.nytimes.com/2019/04/02/opinion/brexit-news.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share&fbclid=IwAR2EjzOF_V0NTV766IEEEfIsnuE0IDrZDnBQIWbMiiuAhKvuyJUmprl47VY
Britain is ruled today by a party that wants to disconnect from a connected world. The notion that the U.K. will suddenly get a great free-trade deal from Trump as soon as it quits the E.U. is ludicrous. Trump believes in competitive nationalism, and the very reason he is promoting the breakup of the E.U. is that he believes America can dominate the E.U.’s individual economies much better than when they negotiate together as the single biggest market in the world.

DelilahfromDenmark · 04/04/2019 23:29

How is Britain Looking from Abroad

I wish I were abroad. Alas I’m right in the thick of it and it’s not looking good in here either.

(Am prone to an understatement, so I am)

ScreamingLadySutch · 05/04/2019 17:11

Why is the economy doing so well? UK outperformed European countries on pretty much every measure.
In 2018, UK got record FDI investment 12.6% higher than 2016, and a clear increase in FDI AFTER the Brexit vote of 2016. Why is this? 1. Devalued pound 2. "There is now significant business opportunities here, that weren't there before, as we are on the cusp of leaving the EU"
London attracted more than double the total amount of direct investments compared with Dublin, Paris, Frankfurt and New York. London raised £37bn in new capital, Frankfurt 26bn, in tech markets, the UK attracted more investments in 2018 than Germany, France and Sweden COMBINED.
All this 'in spite of Brexit'?. But investment is an inherently future orientated allocation of money.
So what is really going on! Who is lying to us and who is telling the truth??

clairemcnam · 05/04/2019 17:24

I tend to read the FT times if I want to know how the economy is doing.
www.ft.com/content/cf51e840-7147-11e7-93ff-99f383b09ff9

MissConductUS · 05/04/2019 20:58

This is from an opinion piece in the Wall Street Journal written by a British ex pat who is now an American citizen.

Brexit Is No Marx Brothers Farce (For the Most Part) Trying to reconcile the popular will with elite opinion was bound to produce chaos.

Because you will likely hit the WSJ's paywall (as I did for the FT link just above), here's the last half of the piece.

So when the country is divided over the issue, it’s very messy. This mess is particularly ugly because, while a narrow but clear majority of the people voted to leave the EU, the leadership of the country—from the prime minister to most of the cabinet to a large majority of members of parliament of all parties—did not want to leave the EU (many still don’t).

They have therefore sought to enact the most minimal form of Brexit they could manage. The chaos has resulted from the constant attempts to square the various circles among the popular will, the lèse-majesté of the elites and the interests of the EU. Herding cats is a breeze by comparison.

But, you’ll say, aren’t the elites right to try to negate or at least minimize Brexit? Isn’t it the most psychopathological act of self-harm any country has ever committed? That’s the part that most people in America have flat wrong.

Of course there are good arguments against Brexit. The EU is an integrated economic area that confers great economic benefits on its members. But the problem for the independent-minded UK is that the EU’s aspirations reach way beyond that. For the last 25 years, in fact, it has acquired the characteristics, laws and institutions of a political union.

Britain is struggling to reconcile the popular wish for more national sovereignty with the realities of an integrated global economy.

The way I put it to my American friends is this: How would you like it if Nafta were not a free-trade agreement but instead a self-avowed political union? How would you like it if there were a North American Court of Justice, in Ottawa perhaps, to which U.S. laws were ultimately subordinate? How about if there were complete freedom of movement, so that a Mexican or Canadian could legally move to the U.S., live, work and enjoy public benefits here?

And what if, for the privilege of all this, the U.S. had to pay about $100 billion a year—proportionate to the annual net contribution the UK makes to the EU?

Now you might think that all of those things are worthwhile. But is it really lunacy to think otherwise? Britain is struggling to reconcile the popular wish for more national sovereignty with the realities of an integrated global economy. If it fails, tragedy, not farce, will come next.

ScreamingLadySutch · 06/04/2019 09:01

Leaving the largest single market with movement of free goods, in the entire world, seems completely insane.

However, we cannot deny that the EU has some pretty major structural faults.

So WHY did Brexit happen?

I think instead of taking stands and refusing to listen to the other side (up to and including vilification), its important to tease out the issues.

The economy IS doing well. The FTSE dropped in 2018 - but at a lower rate than the DAX, CAC, Hang Seng and other markets. Markets are rational. So why is this? Why is unemployment the lowest in Europe, Foreign Direct Investment (what creates jobs) increasing? Why is the tech market booming? How does this link with UK having its own fiscal and monetary policy as well as its own currency?

Then, there is the democratic crisis which nobody now can deny, of the disconnect between the progressive elite who disproportionately dominate politics, media, academia and the judiciary, and 'the silent majority'. The Conservatives are toast. Brexit, Trump, the AfD etc. are symptoms of this. Thomas Sowell wrote a book in the 80s called 'The Vision of the Anointed' that pretty much predicted this fracture.

Lets stop sniping and actually debate the issues. Whatever the 'jingoistic, racist, nasty evil, pseudo intellectual' attacks I got when people 'decided' I was a Leaver (don't bother, personal attacks leave me unmoved), I was trying to give a neutral analysis on what the hell is actually going on.

"In times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act" - George Orwell.

ScreamingLadySutch · 06/04/2019 09:04

Well said MissConductUS

longwayoff · 06/04/2019 10:13

Why? Ask Aaron Banks, Dominic Cumming, Lyndon Crosbie, Barclay Bros et al. It's cost them enough, so they're pretty strident about getting the result they've connived at, invested in, lied and distorted truths for. Lots of dosh, lots of work, a pissed off population ready for exploitation by snake oil salesmen means maximum reward for them. An investment 's an investment after all.

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