How is Great Britain looking from abroad?

[longwayoff]

I've seen various remarks that other countries are confused by our current situation, although surely Ukraine's running it close. Any comments from outside UK mumsnetters?

If you would like to know my real opinion, its about that ancient Chinese curse 'may you live in interesting times'

I think we are moving into interesting times. The social contract is breaking down and so is democracy.

I think UK is fragmenting. I think the eurozone is fragmenting. Invest accordingly.

I really fail to see how demonising me on the basis of what you 'think' I think, advances your arguments or your moral superiority.

@MissConductUS I had to google as I couldn't think of their full names from memory but Rep. Peter King, a Republican from New York, was quoted: "If the British want to consider any type of trade agreement with the US, it's important that that soft border be maintained.". And a Rep. Richard Neal who apparently has has a longstanding involvement in the peace process in Northern Ireland and has previously met with Simon Coveney over Brexit. He is also the chairman of the House Ways and Means Committee, which will oversee any future trade deal between the United Kingdom and United States.

I'll admit I don't know much about American politics and I can only go on the ones which have been reported in our own press.

@ScreamingLadySutch I'm so glad you mentioned debate. Would you like to counter any of the flaws with your WTO idea I mentioned in my previous post or are you just going with the standard Brexiteer whataboutery?

It's hard to take someones opinion seriously when they just clog their posts with quotes of comments from Youtube and waffle.

scaryteacher "As the EU wasn't iirc a signatory to the GFA, then it shouldn't be using the GFA as a negotiation tool now"
But the ROI was a signatory, and is a member of the EU

And which analyses say the GFA is not breached by a hard Brexit? How would the requirements of WTO trade and an end to FOM be enforced without a hard border? There have been vague references to a 'technology solution' but I thought that currently didn't exist and it was merely hoped someone could invent something...

Any evidence of anything more promising on the GFA and I'm all eyes and ears - I have relatives on the island of Ireland who are very very worried indeed...

Exhausted Ever closer union; the answer to every problem being 'more Europe'. The 'voice' we had being diminished by QMV, and more and more changes being made as they are decided as non legislative, as opposed to them going to the Council or to national parliaments. Being subject to the ECJ, and the ratchet of the Acquis.

I think that some don't look closely enough at what the EU is up to, seeing it as a fluffy unicorn glitter cuddly organisation that makes nice rules about mobile phone chargers. It isn't.

The rest of the world seems to manage, and prosper in many cases outwith the EU. Why shouldn't we?

Brexshitisntit see above. Add into this being on the hook, even though we are outside the Euro, when the next global financial crisis hits, as it may well do shortly, to drag the poorer EU member states out of the mire. I also dislike the way the rules are ignored - Germany is not fined for the budget surplus it runs outside the parameters growth and stability pact - France and Belgium aren't fined for breaching those rules either by having too great a deficit. The rules aren't applied evenly, but to exert political pressure, or to buy political capital with particular member states. I think that's negative.

Inion I don't trust the EU as the processes are so opaque; the language can mean whatever the EU wants it to mean on any given day; rules are broken, without consequences, by member states and by officials; and it is all about the Commission ultimately possessing central control via the Acquis.

Cross national cooperation seems to work fine in NATO without ceding control of our finances, foreign policy and submitting to the laws of an external judicial system, and our parliament subservient to a supra national organisation.

Ah I see, ScreamingLady. You objected to the Remain campaign because it was so uncivil. Right. What was that you wrote upthread about unfounded ad hominem insults? I thought you were all about facts and economics, not feelings and people using hurty words. You're not being very consistent or coherent on this thread but then again pro-Brexit folks never are.

The arguments go like this:
'It's about the economy and free trade' - ok, where are the trade deals you've set up in preparation for exit from the EU? Presumably you have built a detailed plan for restructuring British trade along WTO guidelines in the past three years? Nope? Nothing? OK.

'It's about British identity' quickly followed by 'I have nothing against foreigners. Many of my friends are foreigners.'

'It's about reducing regulation' - which regulations specifically? Crickets or 'Um, something about bananas... I think the EU said they had to be straight or angled or something.. and maybe street lighting? I'm not sure. I read it in the Daily Mail'.

'It's about controlling our borders' - OK, so what's your plan for the border with Ireland? You know, the border that you have on another island that is governed by a peace agreement you signed 20 years ago? Ah, you forgot all about that, did you? Forgot that NI is actually part of the UK... I see.

Facts, eh? So many good facts there on the Brexit side. Solid rational people, the lot of them.

@Exhausted18, I think it's mostly bluster. In the grand scheme of things trade with the UK is fairly small for us, and according to the office of the US Trade Representative, deals are already being done on a product category basis rather than a large, comprehensive agreement.

ustr.gov/countries-regions/europe-middle-east/europe/united-kingdom/us-uk-trade-agreement-negotiations

Exhausted sorry I didn't reply.

Its because I agreed with you.

Remember I said 'some Leavers' want WTO. Not "I want".

I don't think the comments of economists on this issue are clogging up with waffle. I found them interesting, so thought other people might too.

InionEile have you heard of the logical fallacy of ad hominem? It goes like this:
X says Y
X is a vicious, bigoted, racist imperialist. Who is evil to boot.
Therefore Y is not true and we don't have to listen to X, anyway.

Regarding bigotry and narrow mindedness, have a little look at the definition of 'projection':

Psychological projection is a defence mechanism in which the human ego defends itself against unconscious impulses or qualities by denying their existence in themselves while attributing them to others. For example, a person who is habitually rude may constantly accuse other people of being rude.

What swung my decision to leave was the vile aggressive attitude of the remainers towards those who were choosing a different path

That has two one of the most ridiculous reasons I've heard to vote leave. Never mind the economic impact, never mind the impact on the peace process. The retainers are meanies so I'll show them by voting leave

@MissConductUS that is fair enough statement and like I said, I would not know much about the politics of the states. IMHO though (and it's only my opinion), USA will not be kind to UK in any future trade talks regardless of the GFA. They will push for as many concessions as they can (as is understandable, it is in their own interests) and the UK will be negotiating from a weakened position. I despise Trump, but I'll say this for him, his administration can smell weakness a mile off. If those pesky EU regulations are out of the way I can see them trying to force their meats etc on the UK markets.

scaryteacher

• what has the ECJ decided that you don't approve of?
• has the UK been fined under the budget parameters you referenced? - What negative impact does this perceived unfairness have on the UK?
• which non-legislative changes do you object to?

Without drilling down into your points all we get is 'because [list of things] are bad' without explaining how or why this negatively impacts the UK and its citizens. My view is that those things do not negatively impact, therefore they are not negative.

The rest of the world seems to manage, and prosper in many cases outwith the EU. Why shouldn't we? Because they are either bigger and/or have pre existing trading relationships and pacts with other countries (in particular their equivalent of the 49% of trade UK does with the EU, its closest neighbours).

-Exactly what is UK's obligation to bail out other member states? Is it the same as the private banks we bailed out during the 2008 crash?

• It's simply untrue to say that EU membership is ceding control of our finances! We contribute about 1% of our GDP! It's dishonest scaremongering to state otherwise.
• The ECJ judicial system only polices the rules of the EU, not national laws. Our parliament is not subservient to the EU organisation! It is free to govern as it wishes on national issues and UK has EU influence over EU laws via the EU institutions.

Yes, ScreamingLady, I have heard of the logical fallacy of ad hominem thinking - in fact I’ve most recently seen it in your earlier post. You know the bit where you admitted you didn’t engage with the arguments of Remainers once they started showing themselves to be uncivil meanies. So kind of like you said ‘Remainers say X but Remainers are Y bad character trait so I don’t agree with X argument?

Great self-own there.

Your pseudo intellectualism is too transparent. Try to keep up.

Really floored by your definition of psychological projection too. Wow. Mind = blown. I had never encountered* the concept before reading that little Wikipedia definition you trotted out there. Very enlightening!

*Except in every single bitchy argument I had with teenage friends when I was 15

@MissConductUS - I also said that the UK was widely, not universally, admired and respected here.

I am able to read! I didn't claim otherwise. Equally, I did not claim there is anti-British sentiment in the US. What I stated was, there is a strong Irish American contingent. Some Irish American politicians have already stated the importance of the GFA and where their sympathies lie.

Here's a link to a recent report in the Irish Times www.irishtimes.com/news/world/uk/brexit-uk-told-to-uphold-belfast-agreement-if-it-wants-us-trade-1.3785317

I'm in the US. I'm finding Brexit to be confusing and a bit of a shitshow, but in all honesty my own country is going down in a great ball of twitter fire so I don't judge you at all.

@ScreamingLadySutch You stated in your initial post, Brexit is ultimately about an economic choice between staying in the EU market or leaving on WTO trade terms (without making any reference at all to the horrendous pitfalls of this idea).

And then after this you state that you, as a leaver, don't actually want WTO.

I am absolutely none the wiser about what you actually want to achieve.

Brexshitisntit "As the EU wasn't iirc a signatory to the GFA, then it shouldn't be using the GFA as a negotiation tool now"
But the ROI was a signatory, and is a member of the EU So? France is a member of the EU and signed the Le Touquet and Sandhurst treaties bi-laterally.

The GFA is between the governments of the UK and the ROI, not the EU.

I've read differing opinions over the last couple of years and haven't saved them. I'll do some digging tomorrow if I have time to see if I can find them if you like?

@scaryteacher - According to some analyses, it wouldn't rip up the GFA at all, so it depends what one reads. If no border is erected by HMG, or the Irish govt, then presumably the GFA holds.

If the UK do not erect a border in NI, under WTO rules wrt most favoured nation states, they cannot erect a border with anyone else. That's not exactly taking back control of your borders.

As the EU wasn't iirc a signatory to the GFA, then it shouldn't be using the GFA as a negotiation tool now.

Ireland is a member of the EU. The EU has an obligation to protect the interests of its members. Not protecting the GFA would be a gross dereliction of their duty.

If those pesky EU regulations are out of the way I can see them trying to force their meats etc on the UK markets.

There's no way to create demand for US products out of thin air. If no one wants to buy them they can't be exported.

The GFA is between the governments of the UK and the ROI, not the EU.

The EU is its members. Therefore the GFA is can important part of any agreement.

'It's about reducing regulation' - which regulations specifically?Crickets or 'Um, something about bananas*

National Farmers' Union of England and Wales - after the referendum result;

Brexit presents important opportunities with regard to regulation. Regulation was the subject of much debate in the run up to the EU referendum of June 2016, and the frustration of many farmers with rules seen as originating from the EU was clear.

The Department for the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Defra) estimates that approximately 1,200 EU laws, a quarter of the total, relate to its remit ... Quite simply a vast variety of farming activity is touched by regulation.

Our withdrawal from the EU provides an opportunity to review much of that regulation, and to devise a regulatory regime that is fit for purpose...

It is not surprising that farmers have had their fair experience of bad regulation and the NFU has therefore long campaigned for reform.

This does not reflect an opposition to regulation per se, but rather a desire to see the details of design and implementation improved.

Many potential issues are a result of poor design or implementation, rather than any inherent failure in the identification of an issue requiring a regulatory solution.

scaryteacher how much of the GFA do you understand? It only works because UK and ROI are both in the EU. Breaching the GFA undoubtedly destablises ROI, a member of the EU, it is therefore completely valid for the EU to be interested in preserving the interests of the ROI, which have derived in part from its EU membership, with regards to the GFA.

And just to probe your 'butt out of the GFA, EU!' stance a little further - how would the UK comply with WTO commitments and an end to FOM without patrolling its border with the ROI?

@MissConductUS The US can and will turn the screws on quotas for all sorts of products to the UK. And there will always be some market, however little it might be, for cheap meat no matter how chlorinated it is. Same goes for many other countries, not just the US btw.

It doesn't matter if it is one single piece of chicken, if the UK does start importing food that doesn't fit EU regulations, a border will have to appear on the island of Ireland to meet with their own EU responsibilities. This is why trading on WTO rules would also mean a hard border is inevitable.

In the Oxford Union debate that people think is waffle about how badly the Euro has been structured and which has caused this democratic crisis, who thinks the solution is MORE Europe and uniting about democracy ... at around 34 minutes:

"Most people who support fascistic parties, they are not fascists. They are just angry. They feel disenfranchised. They feel like cattle whose market value has tanked, and who are being treated as such, by the establishment. I think that the 'progressives', the so-called 'liberal democratic' establishment - so-called, they are neither liberal nor democratic.

They are making a crucial error in demonising those people. So look at the hard-core Remainers, the way they demonise Brexiteers. They call them racist, they call them this, that and the other. In the United States you have the ridiculous situation where the Democratic Party is going to the people who voted for Trump and saying 'you were duped by Putin. Putin stole the election through Facebook'. My goodness. What an insult to people who, by the way, most of those people who voted for Trump, had voted for Obama in 2008. How can you say to them they are racist, and they were duped by Putin. I mean, did Putin try to influence the election in the United States? I am sure he did, but I did, too! I did, I really did, I did my best to influence the election. And I failed specularly. And Putin, I'm sure had about the same impact that I had. So I think this is really very important. We do not sacrifice good people to the ultra right by treating them like morons, and demonising them. This is crucial. We have to win the battle of ideas, by treating people with respect, independently of whether they agree, or even like us or not"

[looks beadily around]

I had no idea about the chicken issue until saw it discussed on MN and then found this in The Economist

What is the flap about chlorinated chicken?

As the article notes, chlorine is widely used to disinfect public water supplies, including in the UK, and organic chicken, which is widely produced in the US, does not use it. I see your point about the border though. The simple answer would be to only import chicken from the US that meets organic and EU standards.