How is Great Britain looking from abroad?

[longwayoff]

I've seen various remarks that other countries are confused by our current situation, although surely Ukraine's running it close. Any comments from outside UK mumsnetters?

@MissConductUS - The UK is widely respected and admired here.

You're forgetting the very strong Irish American contingent in the US. Several politicians have already come out and said that if the UK screws up the GFA, they will not be happy and that will be reflected in their attitude towards deals with the UK.

@ScreamingLadySutch Your post is glossing over some of the more glaring problems with WTO. For a start

*The UK do not currently trade on WTO only terms despite what Jacob Rees Moggs would have you believe. You trade with most of the world under bilateral agreements and free trade agreements which the EU have negotiated and which will need to be renegotiated from a much weaker position. How is that going for ye right now?? Oh yeah, ye have rolled over £16bn of the £117bn trade deals that ye currently have with the EU as of Feb this year. Great.

*WTO has a rule known as the "Most favoured Nation" which is basically a non-discrimination rule for members of the WTO. It means that the UK cannot give favourable treatment to one nation over others outside of mutually agreed upon trade agreements. So you want to impose zero tariffs on chicken from France? Fine but you have to do the same for the USA (I am simplifying here).

• Trading under WTO only terms are quite comprehensive for goods but a bit scant for services, which make up a nice percentage of UK's exports.

*Trading under WTO terms alone would guarantee a hard border would need to be established in Ireland. Is this an acceptable consequence do you think?

I am no expert but my attempts at trying to educate myself on the ridiculous suggestions brexiteers come up with lead me to believe that a lot of them are pseudo-intellectual bullsh*tters who don't give a crap about their country (that last comment not aimed at any posters on here but the so-called "experts" who are supposed to know what they are talking about).

Screaminglady Lovely analysis, thanks.

The breaking of the social contract is how the U.S. got Trump and we got Brexit. A failure to recognise this is why the U.S. will get Trump for a second term, and why a second referendum would return the same leave result here, but with a WTO Brexit.

Having read Martin Howe's analysis today, I hope we do go WTO, otherwise we'll never get out.

I have a question, if I may?

Since I have started following your Brexit efforts, I have been wondering... Where/with whom do you Identify?

I/we see you as European, but I have come across loads of post that indicate that a lot of brits see mainland Europe as 'forriners' 🤮, with that kind of attitude.
It would explain a lot (re. Voting), but then with whom do you identify?
Yes you are a big country, but surely you won't be able to rule the world alone? 😁

And, the Oxford Union address by the former minister of finance, of Greece. Another economist!

Am Irish, married to a brit living in Ireland. His family living in England were of mixed vote. The few who voted leave are not racists r zenophobes it was the 'let's make Britain great again' idea & wanted to show frustration at govt at the time. They won't admit they were wrong though. theyve shifted blame to May for the current shit show. The UK govt looks ridiculous right now all the time wasted on brexit when so many real issues on the table.

@oldwhyno - ‘Fix the Irish issue’. Firstly it’s a British issue, created by British colonialism and sectarianism and perpetuated by the British government since 1922. NI is not part of Ireland so we have no control over it. Something few British people seem to be aware of. NI is the responsibility of the UK government and can only be ‘fixed’ by you guys. Ireland can cooperate and support the UK government but we have no governmental control over the province. The GFA was a good mechanism for the UK and Irish governments to share power and jointly resolve issues together but if the UK is now reneging on that peace agreement and just ripping up its agreements with all neighbouring countries willy-nilly then that kind of messes that up, doesn’t it? I have yet to see a coherent suggestion from any British politician to resolve the ‘British border issue’ as we can call it. British politicians don’t even seem to know where the borders of their own country begin and end so if they want better border control they should probably figure that out first.

As for your post, ScreamingLadySutch, it reminds me of the nice white people here in the US who were desperate to reassure everyone after Trump was elected that it was all about economics and if we could just create jobs in the Rust Belt, no-one would ever be racist ever again! We all know that was bullshit. Trump voters are racists who think brown skinned people are not proper Americans like they are and they voted for Trump out of concern for ‘white erasure’, not because they wanted jobs in the Rust Belt.

UKIP were the main drivers of the Brexit movement from day one. Can you honestly sit there and say that UKIP, yes UKIP, are focused on trade policy as their main election platform? Really? And if it were so important, let’s just pretend, then where are the trade deals? It’s been THREE YEARS. If Brexiters want to shift to a higher risk trading strategy on WTO rules then where’s the work they’ve done to set that up? So far all it’s been is 3 years of moaning, whinging and Ireland-bashing, trying to lay blame at anyone’s door except their own.

Come on. You know perfectly well Brexit was about bigotry and a resurgence of racist British imperialism. The only interest in world trade comes from a desire to return to the good old days, by Jingo, where Blighty could boss these benighted colonies around and force India et al to buy their shoddy goods. Sadly, 52% of British people still seem to be in denial about the place of their country in the world and the Brexit nervous breakdown is demonstrating that quite painfully.

Irish issue??? You do know that the problem is a British border in Ireland?

Ticklingcheese I've lived in Belgium for 13 years now due to Dh's employment. I see myself as English, and think we have more in common with the Anglosphere (US/Can/Aus/NZ) in terms of language, law and culture.

Before anyone jumps on me for saying I'm English, others on here say they are Welsh, Scottish, Irish etc. I was born in Devon, so am English.

@scaryteacher - Having read Martin Howe's analysis today, I hope we do go WTO, otherwise we'll never get out.

Doing so would result in the GFA being ripped up by the UK. Are you OK with that? Is it a case of the end justifying the means?

I'm British living on mainland Europe (Germany) I work in a global company and deal with colleagues from all over Europe and the US on a daily basis.

Initially after the vote there was a bit of an 'oh dear, we didn't realise you lot were that pissed off' kind of response. Then as the negotiations became more farcical colleagues would become increasingly bemused at our inability to act cohesively, to know what we want and to go out and get it.
I now have colleagues from the likes of Germany, Italy, Poland, Slovakia and Croatia (and a random Bulgarian and Austrian on a ski lift last week) openly laughing at our leader May who appears to have gone mad and them telling me how we Brits are looking very stupid to them...
At a local/national government level there have been lots of patient unemotional updates explaining our rights and what we will have to do to get leave to remain in the event of various types of Brexit (I can almost read the eye-rolling between the lines though...!)

Americans are less invested in the current fuss though were bemused, almost shocked after the initial vote (and we returned the favour when their fellow countrymen voted in Trump).

My eleven year old here in Ireland has been avidly watching with us and recently exclaimed " I thought adults knew what they were doing..."

Absolute shit show

Inion I voted Leave because I don't like where the EU is going, and have been watching it since Black Wednesday in 1992, and becoming more and more uneasy and disquieted about it.

I was too young in the 70s to vote, I was only 7, so this has been my chance to have my say, and I want out. I can understand why it seems easier to remain, but I don't think it will be in the longer term.

@screamingatladysutch as a fellow economist I was getting more and more dubious as I read your post - some nice choice phrases round mass immigration , ‘soverienty’ and Jacob Rees moggs toward the end confirmed my suspicions. Your view seems far from that of an impartial economist.

Fellow posters - I would take this post with a very large pinch of salt...

@scaryteacher If you are concerned about where the EU is going then why, oh why would you want to throw your hat in with the WTO only? Having to deal with the whims of 163 other countries instead of having a strong voice amongst 28? I'm not being goady, I promise, I genuinely don't understand. Better the devil you know, surely?

@AnnaSteen - Fellow posters - I would take this post with a very large pinch of salt...

Thank you for confirming what I thought.

InionEile "You know perfectly well Brexit was about bigotry and a resurgence of racist British imperialism. "

no, you don't know that at all. Please spend some moments of your time listening to the speech by the German and the Greek.

Regarding Trump, there was a very good article by Charles Moore who wrote during the US campaign 'Trump might have the wrong answers, but he is asking the right questions'. Reading that, I knew Trump was going to win.

What Obama and the Clintons did, was move USA towards a more state centralised European model. More state protection. That has to be paid for. By whom? By the taxpayers. It also raises economic costs. These are very simple concepts ...

Americans are individualists and rejected this model for an anti establishment candidate. I know you were shocked to the core, but I called Trump and I called Brexit.

PS SHORT the pound and UK equities, because I call that Labour is going to win the GE.

" Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored" - Aldous Huxley

scaryteacher I don't understand what you mean when you say 'where the EU is going' what do you mean by that? Where is it going?

What would the negative consequences be of 'going' with it?

Agreed, @AnnaSteen. Their post has all the hallmarks of someone using economics to justify xenophobia and bigotry. Ironic coming from a poster who claims to be a British person living in an African country.

Interesting that you feel that way, @scaryteacher, considering that you live in Belgium. What makes you so wary of the EU? I lived in Belgium for a while too and will admit the EU is not a perfect framework for trade and political cooperation. It has its problems but it's the best solution we have seen so far to cross-national cooperation in Europe and surely better to face the world as a geopolitical trading bloc rather than alone as individual European nations.

@doIreallyneedto - You're forgetting the very strong Irish American contingent in the US. Several politicians have already come out and said that if the UK screws up the GFA, they will not be happy and that will be reflected in their attitude towards deals with the UK.

That's an interesting point. I'm one of those Irish Americans and have a common Irish surname. Most people who identify as Irish American are several generations removed as Irish immigration to the US peaked in the 19th century. There is no strong anti-British sentiment in my family or the families of the other Irish Americans I know. I also said that the UK was widely, not universally, admired and respected here.

I'm a bit of news junkie and I was unaware of Irish American politicians speaking out in a threatening manner about brexit. Can you share any links documenting this?

What a shit show. We just hope you don't bring Ireland down with you.

DoI According to some analyses, it wouldn't rip up the GFA at all, so it depends what one reads. If no border is erected by HMG, or the Irish govt, then presumably the GFA holds. As the EU wasn't iirc a signatory to the GFA, then it shouldn't be using the GFA as a negotiation tool now.

@MissConductUS

The one example that springs to mind for me is a Democratic Congressman called Brendan Boyle introduced a resolution which sought to have the House of Representatives oppose the reintroduction of a hard border in Ireland. I'm sure I have read others but can't think of them off top of my head.

Source: www.congress.gov/bill/116th-congress/house-resolution/88/text?q=%7B%22search%22%3A%5B%22Good+Friday%22%5D%7D&r=1&s=1

Thanks for the example @Exhausted18. I'd note that Boyle is a second term congressman (who I've never heard of), so not exactly a national figure, and the non-binding resolution simply opposes the imposition of a hard border. There's no implied threat to trade relations that I can see.

Anna Steen, if you disagree with me, provide facts to counter the argument.

Its called debate. It involves respect. What's with all this ad hominem illogic?

I am not saying I am absolutely right, I was trying to summarise what Brexit is really about. If you disagree, please by all means add your argument rather than slurs.

I was struck by this comment: "reference the demonisation of opponents by the Lliberal / left / remainers is very well put. I was originally voting to remain, but was undecided until just before the referendum. What swung my decision to leave was the vile aggressive attitude of the remainers towards those who were choosing a different path. I went to listen to the leave tour in Winchester and was genuinely shocked, saddened the angered by the way the remainers bullied and heckled the leavers. After watching the final TV debate and witnessing the difference in attitude and presentation between the two sides - particularly that twisted angry face of Khan, It swung my vote (and i imagine many others) to Leave. The way the Remainers have behaved since has deepened my anger in them. I know of many others who voted to remain, who feel the same way."

I really think people should think about that. This assumption that a second referendum would be comfortably won by the Remain group - they might get another surprise.