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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

How is Great Britain looking from abroad?

408 replies

longwayoff · 01/04/2019 16:37

I've seen various remarks that other countries are confused by our current situation, although surely Ukraine's running it close. Any comments from outside UK mumsnetters?

OP posts:
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LaurieMarlow · 02/04/2019 15:12

I vaguely remember they wanted lower food standards

And more immigration visas (oh the irony)

DioneTheDiabolist · 02/04/2019 15:14

Come on Clavinova, surely you know the big January surplus is not replicated throughout the year.

So let's look at the state of the UK right now: The NHS is on its knees, the Police service is overstretched and parents are being asked to provide loo roll in schools because of cuts to the Education budget, our poor are queuing at food banks, prostituting themselves and dying because of cuts and incompetence in our Social Security system. That's before you get into the cuts to Local Council budgets.

Surely if our government was as rolling in it as you seem to think they are, all ^^ this stuff would be better.

My BiL is a sheep farmer. He's disgusted with Brexit and has said that in the event of a No Deal or Hard Brexit, his farm will lose viability and he'll have to sell up.

scaryteacher · 02/04/2019 15:14

cheshirecat And yet Norway is investing in the UK via the sovereign wealth fund despite Brexit, as it looks over the longer 30 year term, and it cannot see why it should not up the investment here.

Clavinova · 02/04/2019 15:15

LaurieMarlow
Erm you do realise that the UK is very far from being self sufficient on food and that it takes significant time to ramp up production? Farming not your specialised subject huh?

Just spotted your post...
Who said anything about us being self-sufficient? You queried food miles and the environment - I answered that.

You're not one of those people who think we're all going to starve are you? The supermarkets have other ideas it seems;

25th February 2019 Aldi's £50m warehouse opens in Kent

www.fruitnet.com/fpj/article/177972/aldis-50m-warehouse-opens-in-kent

Jan 2019 Lidl opens £70m Regional Distribution Centre (RDC), located at iPort in Doncaster.

www.shdlogistics.com/news/lidl-opens-latest-distribution-centre-in-doncaster

Sep 2018 NewCold opens UK’s biggest deepfreeze in Wakefield
bfff.co.uk/newcold-opens-uks-biggest-deepfreeze/

DioneTheDiabolist · 02/04/2019 15:18

The world thinks we've lost the plot. The UK has become a laughing stock.SadBlush

Clavinova · 02/04/2019 15:21

The deals with India are pre-Brexit deals. We haven't agreed a free-trade agreement with India - we don't have to - the EU don't have a FTA with India either.

FluffyBumps · 02/04/2019 15:55

SE Asia. Not much to report.
Lots of people claim to have never heard of Brexit.

Those that asked/chatted are confused why our government are making a mess of it. They say they always thought UK was a good honest country with a good honest infrastructure. I have been asked if the UK gov are corrupt.
Most (of the few that discussed it) gave me the impression they don't get why its such a massive big deal...making us look more ridiculous.

In Singapore some people said they couldnt understand why UK voted out but didnt seem too concerned. They said there is a good UK Singapore relationship which They personally couldn't see changing. Alot send their kids to school or Uni in the UK and were disappointed it could impact ease of travel over "that side" of the world.

Some Americans I met here laughed and asked how happy were British people with the ever unfolding shit storm. They were having a good laugh at our expense but did concede and say well we've got Trump.and you've got Brexit!!

I met some Australians who were shocked at how nothing was happening except endless disagreements. They didn't really share thier thoughts on Brexit.

Met 2 German guys who said they felt sorry for the British people.

Tbh I try not yo discuss it. I get the impression that some people assume if you are British that you voted out. I not sure the anger felt about Brexit in the UK is known about on some parts of the world which makes us look more unhinged as a country.

ScreamingLadySutch · 02/04/2019 16:15

Hello, economist here (based in Africa)

In the comments, nobody seems to know what Brexit is about. There are a lot of 'disparaging words', but not a lot of knowledge if you don't mind me saying. So here is a summary:

In the 1990s, cheap money meant that governments spent like there was no tomorrow (thank you, New Labour). Therefore, with the exception of Germany, Holland and Finland (who arrested and jailed bankers and paid the debt back), the European countries are in debt. With the financial crisis of 2007/8, several European countries (Greece, Cyprus and possibly France, Italy and Belgium) are technically insolvent.

Debt HAS to be paid back. Governments do this by 1. devaluation, 2. raising taxes, 3. Quantitive Easing/Inflation, 4. Austerity (cutting welfare and state provisions), or (God Forbid) default. Greece has already defaulted 90% of its debt.

You might have noticed that the GBP pound has lost value over the last couple of years. The UK government started paying back the New Labour debt by raising taxes, devalued the pound and implemented austerity (every being cross about the NHS and other services). You might have noticed the government telling us that the deficit is reducing as a result of these measures. Insolvent EU countries who are tied into the Euro cannot devalue so they are stuck.

Any of these measure breaks the social contract. The social contract is an agreement between government and citizens about how much they will be taxed and what services they will be given. You might have noticed that taxes have gone up, and services (such as the NHS) have gone down in quality. This makes citizens, both tax payers and recipients, angry.

The other thing I have to bring up right now, is immigration. What the EU did, was open the borders to mass immigration from the third world. Now, before you start jumping up and down, it's about $ numbers. The average EU per capita income, lets say for arguments sake, is Eu 20,000. The average third world pci is (f a s) Eu 3, 250 if that. The Eu also promises instant welfare on arrival (one of the things David Cameron tried to negotiate on). They do not risk their lives getting on boats for nothing! That means that European's average income WILL fall (the complaints about depressed wages).

You might also remember that Cyprus raided people's bank accounts and took 47.5% of their savings to stop going bankrupt. Portugal and Poland expropriated private pensions to shore up their balance sheet. This really breaks the social contract. Everyone is angry, the social contract is breaking down globally. We are all cross with each other, the Americans are cross with eachother, the French are rioting, populism is on the rise - its all about the social contract.

Now: Germany being in surplus, has the capacity to pay back the European debt and bail out illiquid European nations. Quite understandably, they require that other countries behave a bit more like them before they write a blank cheque. Germany would like the following conditions to be met:

  1. Each Eurozone member hands over some of their fiscal sovereignty to a central authority in Brussels
  2. Each Eurozone member agrees to the creation of a common federation in which there will be one single Foreign Minister, which of course means there will be one single Finance Minister as well.

This is fuelling the rise of populist parties in Europe because it involves handing over sovereign authority to unelected officials who will probably come from other nations. Again, this is a break of the old social contract and an introduction of the new European Federation social contract which officials are trying to persuade Europeans is in their interest (The Project). [Paying back the European debt however, breaks the German social contract hence the rise of populist parties there and in Austria]. Either way, a social contract is broken.

UK: because the UK is outside the Euro, that means that the UK still controls its own monetary policy, interest rates and its own current, tax and fiscal affairs. This makes it an attractive destination economically. The UK now has the lowest tax rates relative to everywhere else, and a strong rule of law in a world where the social contract is breaking down. This is why the rich of the world are buying in London and elsewhere.

So for the British, the deal Britain signed up for upon entry into the EU (economic) is not the same deal today. For countries that require bailouts, they must hand over power discussed above. For the British public, the UK does not need a bailout and this movement towards centralisation of power is what Brexit is about. For Leavers, losing any control over their sovereignty and fiscal affairs is not a good idea.

Economically, the EU is a safe market. However, it is very protectionist (labour laws, tariffs, voting to pay Africa reparations for being colonised etc), which raises costs and reduces competitiveness. The EU is the slowest growing economic zone in the world. Being in control of ones own taxation and fiscal affairs means that UK could in theory on leaving drop taxes to 20% and the EU would have a 'Singapore' style economy on their doorstep (what Jacob Rees-Mogg talks about)

Brexit is ultimately about an economic choice: whether to stay in the safe but slow growing and uncompetitive market where centralised bureaucrats make the decisions;

or whether to leave and take the risk of reconnecting with Commonwealth economies and rising markets such as India, Africa and of course, China, on WTO trade terms.

One is safe, the other is risky but could come with greater growth.

Hope that helps.

Gisel · 02/04/2019 16:19

Irish and everyone is sick of it, though we have never watched as much ORDER ORDER - THE NO'S HAVE IT in our lives Grin. We are very proud of how our Taoiseach has handled it and also happy with Simon Coveney. Leo Varadkar is unpopular on other issues, but not on this one. If it wasn't going to affect us so negatively, we would find it immensely amusing. There is an element of glee at watching the demise of the UK, but we are acutely aware of how linked our economies and politics are. I think there is a stronger than ever sense of allegiance to the EU as a direct consequence of Brexit.

TheHumbleHawthorn · 02/04/2019 16:21

The world thinks we've lost the plot. The UK has become a laughing stock

We really haven't . Most people (close to 7 billion!) are too wrapped up in their own lives to have an opinion. BigChoc is one of those expats who love to piss all over England- no wonder aggrieved foreigners love to bitch about the UK with her. I love my country and wouldn't tolerate it but plenty of expats love to decry the country they left behind.

LaurieMarlow · 02/04/2019 16:23

Hope that helps.

Helps what exactly? Confused

ScreamingLadySutch · 02/04/2019 16:25

Sorry to be rude about New Labour, but I was tearing my hair out when they were spending like tomorrow never comes, and could not understand why voters couldn't see this. Debt ALWAYS has to be paid back.

And who pays it back? Which of course, breaks the social contract (why everyone is so angry)

How is Great Britain looking from abroad?
How is Great Britain looking from abroad?
Gisel · 02/04/2019 16:26

@ScreamingLadySutch Very interesting post. Thank you for taking the time to write it.

ScreamingLadySutch · 02/04/2019 16:29

LaurieMarlow, the explanation that Brexit is ultimately about two choices - European Market, or WTO terms.

It would be nice if people debated the issue and stopped sneering at eachother.

BeenThereDone · 02/04/2019 16:31

Brexit summary

Do you want to leave? Yes
Do you accept the deal? No
Do you want any of the ammendments on offer? No
So do u want to leave with no deal? No

What the hell do you want then!!!

Seriously couldn't make this shit up!!

Gisel · 02/04/2019 16:31

@ScreamingLadySutch - you might find this comedian amusing as an Economist - talking about debt in Ireland and the world.

LaurieMarlow · 02/04/2019 16:36

the explanation that Brexit is ultimately about two choices - European Market, or WTO terms.

Firstly, brexit is about far more than economics. It’s about national identity, diplomacy, relations with other countries, post world war structures, geography, and so on.

Secondly even in economic terms, I’m sure there’s a wealth of nuance beyond the binary choices you present.

Thirdly if you weren’t so patronising you may have gotten a better reception. It’s not like you unearthed radical new ground with your post and you certainly didn’t capture anything close to ‘what brexit is all about’.

Gisel · 02/04/2019 16:39

the explanation that Brexit is ultimately about two choices - European Market, or WTO terms.
The other issue I think that strongly affected Leavers, was as you say, the EU's immigration policy for people from outside the EU.

People will argue that external-EU immigration is not influenced by EU policy but it has been a massive issue and a massive influencer on voter opinion at the time of Brexit voting from what I have read.
The more high-brow learned voters may have been concerned about the economic implications, but I don't think that Mick the builder particularly cared.

Your explanation does offer a glimmer of hope to the British Economy I think.

I wonder is that why the MPs keep rejecting TM's deal? Is it not giving them what they want on economic terms?

MissConductUS · 02/04/2019 16:42

The most common reactions I see in the US are concern about how dire the impact is going to be on people and a certain bemused sense that everyone underestimated the complexity of leaving. It's a common logical fallacy - anything I don't understand must be easy.

Re brexit more generally, I think that many Americans, from our remote point of view, understand why the EU rubbed some people the wrong way. We would have a very hard time with an external entity making our immigration rules and regulating all sorts of aspects of our everyday lives.

MissConductUS · 02/04/2019 16:50

it's all the ex-colonies taking the opportunity to get their own back for the past I include the US in this

I'm not understanding this at all. If anyone thinks that there is still some animosity left here from the American Revolution they are completely clueless about American culture and character. George III was a bit of a nutter but doesn't come up much these days. The UK is widely respected and admired here.

ScreamingLadySutch · 02/04/2019 16:59

LaurieMarlow

sorry I came over patronising. And you are right it is about those things " national identity, diplomacy, relations with other countries, post world war structures, geography, and so on." - I tried really hard not to get sidetracked.

But essentially, however disdainful you might be, the issues being decided on are ultimately about economics and sovereignty (and how sovereignty shapes economic policy) and that IS what Brexit is about.

Sorry I didn't use the tone you liked. However, apart from sneering, have you come across with any facts to counter argue what Brexit is about? No. You haven't. So, come on. Let's feel the fibre of your fabric.

BeenThereDone "Do you accept the deal? No" - because for some Brexiteers Leave means no deal, just WTO terms.

ScreamingLadySutch · 02/04/2019 17:01

Gisel, love it!

TansyViola · 02/04/2019 17:07

I'm in England. When we had a French girl staying with us on an exchange recently i made sure i mentioned on the first night that my husband and I voted to stay in the EU. Didn't want her and her family thinking I was a Brexiter. How embarrassing!

LaurieMarlow · 02/04/2019 17:14

However, apart from sneering, have you come across with any facts to counter argue what Brexit is about? No. You haven't. So, come on. Let's feel the fibre of your fabric.

I’m not even really following your point now, to be honest.

Yes, there are economic facts that underpin the issue.

But when you try to unravel how we got here, what motivated people, how we move on from here, then you’ve got a million other issues, factual and perceptual to wade through. And these need to be understood,

So what about the leave voter mentioned upthread who voted ‘to get the Pakis out’? Or the leave voters who believed the NHS bus? Or my parents whose livelihood and peaceful existence on the border of NI is imminently threatened? And those are just a few random examples.

How does your very boiled down analysis of ‘what it’s all about’ help anyone understand how we got here or how we move forward?

ScreamingLadySutch · 02/04/2019 17:17

This is the speech Jacob Rees-Mogg referred to in his tweet.

Dr Alice Weidel is an economist.