To think this could be the end of brexit as mps take control of the process from the PM

[quittinaeete]

Theresa may now really cant go for a hard brexit, anyone else think it's brexit cancelled?

Peanut, turning your question around why do you think the uk government couldn't increase maternity benefits if it wished to do so whilst in the EU? The EU legislation generally imposes minimum standards not limits. Hence it's protection not limitation!

@peanut well why don’t you answer me a question then - how is the border situation going to be worked out in Ireland?
It’s, you know, pretty bloody important to a lot of people, to the peace process.

Can you imagine how angry people are going to be with a mess at that border? That’s a real civil historical civil war that no one wants to reignite. Or don’t you care? Can Nigel Farage sort it out?

@americandream is your name pure irony here?

I can't answer any questions til I've got my head round money... if by leaving the eu we save billions per year... can't we use that cash to do stuff for us? Arts, science etc.

We don't need to trade though. We are going to become self sufficient, immediately.

Or we will swap stuff with our friends in America and China. Or summat < waves hands airily >

I think that even if EU people don't come here, we'll be selling visas for trade deals to countries like China and Commonwealth migrants will increase in number. We rely on immigrant labour. EU immigrants pay more tax than they take out from the system.

The border situation is exactly why the government should not have called a referendum in first place, surely they should have thought of that?!

Well I certainly agree with you on that matter.

You are very naive in thinking the government had or has the first clue what they are doing, peanut.

They don't give a shiny shit what happens to ordinary people.

lending weight to my argument for minimum IQ testing before people are allowed to vote

If we, those with a low IQ are that stupid then thank God I didn't vote. Although look what a mess those with high IQ's have made.

This sits uneasy with me for many reasons. I do remember there was a promise before the referendum that whatever the outcome, it would be honoured so not honouring it I find troubling and it does seem undemocratic.

I know there will be responses about the good of the country but does that ‘trump’ a democratic vote? That’s one of the things I have been wrestling with. (not that I can change anything anyway).

See more rude remarks aimed at my intelligence. Is that all you have?!

Referendums are advisory.

@peanut wow so you voted for leave but didn’t think it through with the border? Shame on you.

if by leaving the eu we save billions per year

How much money have we already lost by companies going abroad?

How much money have we spent on sodding no-deal planning?

How much did all those fridges cost? The ferries?

How much will be spent on negotiators for trade deals?

Do you really think a massive operation like Brexit is actually an up-front money-saver? When do you think there will be money in the pot for the opera?

the best thing to do would be to Revoke, sort out a decent plan and then when that is in place, invoke article 50 again

This.

Peanut for someone of your intelligence and education the questions you are asking are quite surprising. My 13 year old has more understanding. Do you not think it was as easy as making new laws/deals/funding stuff then it would have been done by now? Also, your “them v us” rhetoric is divisive and unhelpful.

I voted remain and actually don’t want a second referendum. But I think it’s clear A50 was revoked by Parliament too quickly which started the clock, best thing to revoke, sort a deal, and trigger it again.

Because @Peanut1983 in terms of cash then yes, we are a net contributor. But the ancillary trade benefits are huge and worth far far more than the money we pay.

It's like when people complain about foreign aid - it makes a lot more sense when you understand that we're not giving millions in cash to third world countries simply to allow them to dig wells or buy mosquito nets. We're sending that money so their governments will give British companies access to their natural resources and make obscenely large profits from them.

A similar but much larger scale operation happens with the EU. We subscribe to the club, we get to operate under lots of lucrative trade deals, like the one the EU have just signed with Singapore which took NINE YEARS to negotiate.

Alternatively, we could leave and hope that we can negotiate a deal with Singapore in nine years time.

Nobody has answered my money question? Maybe I missed it? How much do we give the eu vs how much they give us?

I think there was a post upthread that specifically answered re membership fees and money gained back in grants etc.

However, the most important thing to understand is that economically, it is not a question of the money we pay in versus the money we get directly back. The huge economic benefits to the UK come from our membership of the single market. It's difficult to put a specific figure on it, but the CBI estimates that the net benefit is between £68 and £72 billion per year, or roughly 5% of our GDP. This economic gain is created by access for UK firms to the huge single market without any tariff barriers, the efficiency savings made by the simplified supply chain and common regulations, increased clout in the global market by belonging to the world's most powerful economic bloc, increased flows of inward investment.

They do a good summary of the economic benefits here:
www.cbi.org.uk/insight-and-analysis/our-global-future/factsheets/factsheet-2-benefits-of-eu-membership-outweigh-costs/

The economic benefits are so huge that they are not really doubted by anyone, even the most ardent Brexiter. The red bus with its promise of extra money to the NHS really doesn't stand up to scrutiny and was cynically aimed at those that might not understand the wider economic benefits of our membership. The simple truth is that losing our single market membership will cause GDP to shrink to such an extent that there will be far less money through tax intake and investment to spend on funding public services like the NHS.

I am not a leaver, however I do believe that there will be some kind of civil war. My family in the UK say there is a undercurrent of discontent from the leavers.

Leavers are underestimating the enemy.

Best case scenario is no violence but the BNP will pick up a huge number of votes in the next election

Well if I'm struggling with knowing facts vs risk (see maternity bullshit below) then imagine how less educated people can figure it out. I'm asking questions, I'm asking to be educated on it... there is no shame in that

As for the questions about how much it cost, I got a letter from HMRC a couple of weeks ago telling me how much I pay in tax and where it all goes. I think everyone gets them so working out how much of your income goes to the EU vis a vis other stuff isn’t difficult. FWIW, it was 0.69% of the amount I pay in tax and NI that was my contribution. The smallest percentage of all the things my tax is spent on.

the BNP will pick up a huge number of votes in the next election

They barely exist any more

How much do we give the eu vs how much they give us?

the U.K. are net contributers.

So americandream et al, I will humour you.

Go on, tell me. Exactly how does this civil war kick off and how is it fought? What is going to happen exactly? Who is going to drive which tanks? Who is fighting who and what uniform will they wear and what do they look like?

And what are the "300 million Europeans" that Farage explicitly told us would arrive on our shores if we don't leave the EU going to do? Are they coming to watch us all play fisticuffs?

You are in cloud cuckoo land.

*contributors