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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To ask how many genuine sociopaths/psychopaths you've actually met?

364 replies

WillGymForPizza · 23/03/2019 16:06

I strongly suspect that I'm working with someone who is possibly a sociopath. Obviously I'm not a psychiatrist so can't properly diagnose, but Ive met some dodgy and unlikable people in my time and this person takes it to a whole level. I genuinely believe her to be evil. She doesn't appear to have a moral compass and seems to take great pleasure in publicly humiliating her staff. They are all utterly terrified of her.

Most disturbingly of all I work in a Primary School and this person is this person is the headteacher....

How common is this kind of thing? Ive never come across anyone like this before.

OP posts:
Lizzie48 · 24/03/2019 22:54

My DH's high school head teacher had it in for his dad, who was the physics teacher. He literally drove him to a nervous breakdown. His NUT rep thought he had a strong case for constructive dismissal, but by then he was just too broken and ended up resigning and quitting teaching altogether.

He also had it in for my DH. He failed one of his A Levels that he was expected to pass and refused to challenge the result despite the fact that there was a good chance that the challenge would be successful.

It seems that the role of headteacher attracts sociopathic type individuals.

MySisterTotallyIs · 24/03/2019 23:18

Whilst I would generally concur with the idea that serious diagnostic terms are bandied about on here far too loosely, I think to write armchair diagnostics off as rubbish tarnishes the hope for victims of this sort of person that their experience is valid.

To contrast :

There's a woman at my work who is not a nice person and is rather unstable with it. She would probably benefit from long term psychotherapy.

I don't consider her a sociopath. Just vulnerable, angry and damaged.

When I first came on Mumsnet, I had NEVER heard of NPD, the physical and mental relief I felt when I read up on it I cannot begin to describe, I was just like "oh my god, it's her, it's her!"

Deeper than that though, there are a few NPD traits that don't fit, but psychopathy traits that absolutely do. Dark Triad mentioned here was very helpful.

I've spoken on this thread about her plausibility before and one thing she's very well versed in is psychobabble speak and pseudo spiritual bollocks. Her professed interest in "that sort of thing" gives her the false impression of someone with emotional intelligence, but it's academic, book learned, catchphrasey, as opposed to intrinsic.

It's just another mask, just another deceit. She is an abuser, it is the core of who she is. The only person who has ever got it is her XH, and, in the breakdown of that marriage she cast herself as the victim there too and was literally believed by EVERYONE except me, who due to her constant abuse, saw and achieved insights into the marriage that other people were blinkered to.

I don't make light when I refer to my sister with serious terminology is what I'm trying to say, once upon a time, as a teenager I could have said "she's just an arsehole and I don't like her"

Nearly 20 years later, after decades of her behaviour, it's very clear to me that it's not just a personality clash, and there is something deeply wrong with her.

Kaleela · 24/03/2019 23:41

My own biological DF ticks a lot of the boxes for a Sociopath. The first 25 years on my life was a constant stream of his crap. When I finally stood up to him, I accused him of not protecting me regarding abuse at the hands of his step son and the next words out of his mouth were something along the lines of "this is how it effected me, did you ever think of that?". He admitted to sending us home to my DM because he could not afford to take it up with his wife as she was threatening to leave if he supported me and "he couldn't afford her to leave because of the maintenance he gives our mother" 😂 his third wife who witnessed this particular exchange, instead of challenging him on the context of the discussion, looked at me and told me that I "clearly needed help". To this day all I can do is laugh, it's REDICULOUS what these people believe. I went no contact to protect my DC.

Menarefrommarsitwouldseem · 24/03/2019 23:54

Those of you speaking about head teachers in the West Midlands?
Is it by any chance a church junior school.

The headteacher my dc go to, the head is vile. I can't even put it into words how much I despise her.
The staff turnover is very high.

CSIblonde · 25/03/2019 00:26

I've met a few real sociopaths, that tick every box, they seem to gravitate to sales as their surface charm is an asset. The one psychopath was a new boss. She fired me & half the team after a week (we'd just won another award for excellence) then proceeded to systematically break the nicest, most talented woman I've ever met who had the misfortune to be her deputy manager. It was horrible. When I idly Googled her 10years later she'd died young at 59. I was just thankful she wasnt still around wrecking people's lives.

ScrewyMcScrewup · 25/03/2019 06:35

Although a lot of MN'ers think they can because they've read The Psycopath Test and watched Dexter

Grin
Arealhumanbeing · 25/03/2019 07:16

I'm quite disturbed to think that there are other headteachers like her out there!

There are so many. I’ve seen parents and support staff become like children in their presence. The teachers seem to take it in their stride.

It always ends in chaos. School failing, multiple staff off sick and then they leave (are moved to another school to continue).

bottleofbeer · 25/03/2019 07:21

Someone mentioned emotional intelligence. Psychologists are beginning to seriously consider it far more important than any other form of intelligence. Way more than IQ.

Book by Daniel Coleman if you're interested.

BarbedBloom · 25/03/2019 07:24

I dated one and after we split they were clinically diagnosed as one after being arrested and charged for something unpleasant. While we were together they did a test to judge whether you were a sociopath or psychopath and scored very highly - I went on after and tried the test myself to see what the questions were and that was when I knew I had to get out.

There are others I have met that I suspect but obviously no clinical diagnosis there

axil · 25/03/2019 07:45

I know one and he's a psychiatrist (he's not in the U.K. anymore). He is utterly charming. Everybody thinks he's amazing until they see another side. Then nobody believes them, because they know this wonderful, charming man. The description upthread "What they all had in common? Charming, extremely charismatic, hypersexual, exciting, risk takers, Machiavellian, liars, massive frightening outbursts when told no or challenged, controlling, manipulative, tries to latch on to kind, empathetic people but humiliates them for being “weak”, calculated - made me feel extremely uncomfortable without knowing why (and no one would believe me if I said there was something “off”)."
is exactly him.

My mother very likely has NPD which is awful to deal with. This guy is a whole other level. I know him through his ex and when she told him (after years of abuse) that she thought he was one he agreed he probably was.

I've read somewhere that psychopaths (or whatever term is used) actually may have a very high level of theory of mind (the ability to see or understand what another person is thinking or feeling) and use that to manipulate. That is what makes their complete inability to feel/empathise with the other dangerous.

Fowles94 · 25/03/2019 07:49

I've met plenty but one of recent was totally unexplainable with her behaviour. I can't go into individual issues but I try believe she is a danger to society. She is a councellor in my area too.

bottleofbeer · 25/03/2019 07:59

I think they'd have very low theory of mind. ToM was first used as a theory of autism as to why they have so many problems with social cues. They simply don't understand what other people are thinking.

Low theory of mind is associated with low empathy, that's not to say autistic people don't have empathy. I just can't fit high ToM with psychopathy. Someone with a highly developed theory of mind would be very empathetic. They mimic, not actually feel. Their danger is in their ability to do this so well. HFA often try to mimic but can't do it as well which is why they can be described as coming across as a bit odd.

bottleofbeer · 25/03/2019 08:00

The Sally Anne test and false belief tasks explain ToM better than I can if you want to look them up!

bottleofbeer · 25/03/2019 08:08

Appears to be a dissertation but interesting.

digitalcommons.butler.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1378&context=ugtheses

TakenForSlanted · 25/03/2019 08:17

Two that I'm reasonably certain about (in my extremely qualified opinion as someone who's literally got zero training in psychiatry) - both at work. You might think that's a lot, but given that I work in a high-pressure, very competitive corporate environment where these types supposedly thrive I think the firm's done a pretty good job at filtering them out before they are even hired or at least turn into a problem.

#1 I'm reasonably certain is actually a text book case. Very superficially charming and supportive - with a penchant for going for the jugular the moment they see an opportunity to advance themselves. Nearly got one of the partners fired just because they were interested in his role. I wouldn't have believed it had I not had the very doubtful pleasure of being in some of the meetings during which said stunt was pulled. Gave me literal nightmares - I've never seen someone go after a colleague with such goal mindedness and in such cold blood. It was actually scary to watch. Got their comeuppance for the time being, but I'm sure they'll be back with a vengeance.

#2 may have been more of an opportunist than an actual psychopath, to be honest. Highly intelligent senior executive. Had a new job lined up and literally spent the last few months of their tenure covering up a huge revenue loss and systematic sexual harassment in their department by not one but three junior execs, leaving the mess for their successor to deal with (unfortunately that happened to be me - oh, was I in for a nasty surprise). Technically a lot of what they did was actually criminal behaviour. Firm decided not to press charges due to the PR debacle that was sure to follow. That one, as far as I can tell, was possibly not actively malicious. Just willing to let us bleed out financially and to turn a blind eye to serious misconduct out of sheer laziness or disinterest. Not sure if this qualifies.

DSHathawayGivesMeFannyGallops · 25/03/2019 08:52

One psychopath, one person who is not a psychopath but probably has some form of personality disorder.

Pretty sure my ex boss would have a diagnosable psychopathy score. Very cold, dead behind the eyes, unpleasant (high staff turnover due to her bullying), seemingly without conscience, any sense of wrong or any empathy. She barely even masked, she had the top job and just used it to break people. I lasted a month. She was more than run of the mill nasty. She's currently pregnant and has declared she's "not interested" if it's a boy. She means it.

Also went to school with someone who I'm fairly sure has some form of PD. She liked friend pinching (I never let her near my then bf, the phrase "just because she can" was written for her) and it took me years as a child to see it and get out of her orbit. Confirmed when she tried it with a friend of mine who wouldn't be manipulated. She's been low level unpleasant to this girl ever since. It took a very long time but I think people did start to see and distance themselves a bit. My two dearest friends from school are the only two who ever mentioned that they really think something isn't right, she doesn't feel normal. My DM has also always had a "horror" of this girl, based on watching her with others and thinks she is capable of being dangerous.
She's very clever, she's capable of being nice and she definitely can feel and empathise, so I don't think she's a proper psychopath, but she's not normal either!

I tried the tests after a few of you mentioned them. I did different ones. I got normal/low scores on the Hare test and nearly all the others, I got one that said I had traits Hmm, one diagnosed me as highly neurotic (true) and the Ronson one, which is a % I got 45% , so 4% over the average for women. It noted that I am pragmatic, do my own dirty work and I'm not a pushover. I'd agree with that. I would say that my dm and I are capable of being emotionally practical if needed. I'm a Gemini, so I've always had the "split personality jokes" when I've surprised people who know a warm hearted chatter box with my ability to be tough when I need to. It's not a bad thing & I don't hurt people, but I can be self-preserving, too.

axil · 25/03/2019 09:27

Bottle i know about those false-belief tests and three mountains etc. Which is exactly why I maintain that psychopaths have a very good understanding of theory of mind, namely what other people can see/understand. The whole problem with these people is they know EXACTLY what people are thinking, but feel zero about it. They also understand what people are feeling but don't get touched by that at all themselves. Cognitive empathy is similar to theory of mind. They have cognitive empathy, but not emotional empathy.

Think of it this way, if you don't know what people are thinking, how they are viewing things or how they feel, how can you manipulate them, often in very complex ways?

bottleofbeer · 25/03/2019 09:33

Yes, they do have very good people reading skills but ToM is associated with understanding and having empathy.

The one thing they don't have. They know WHAT they should be thinking and doing but that doesn't mean they have high levels of ToM because it'd mean they had high levels of empathy.

wetpants · 25/03/2019 10:01

I once had a boss who I'm sure would score high on the psychopath test. I didn't understand her behaviour at the time but now, several years later and a family breakdown under my belt and I can see the signs and see what she was.

When I interviewed for the job, she couldn't have been lovelier, charming and had a hearty giggle. I was offered the job and I remember on my first day I happened to walk through the doors same time as her and she point blank ignored me. When she eventually was forced to acknowledge my presence, she was just cold, dead eyes and seemed to despise me. It may not sound much but it completely threw me after meeting her " lovely and warm personality" at the interview.

On my third day I met my DH (then OH) for lunch and was seriously considering walking out but decided to see the day out. And I'm really not a type of person to flounce or walk out from jobs. I ended up staying and eventually started to enjoy the job and she largely left me alone. About 9 months later I was offered a promotion within the company (it was a large multinational company) which meant she became my colleague as I had a new line manager. Her behaviour ramped up again and she was a master finding a fault and trip me up on our weekly team meetings.

All this may sound fairly tame and that she's just your average bully but there definitely was something sinister about her rather than just unpleasantness. She was very attractive but vacant eyes and no personality. On day to day basis she didn't try hide her real self, only when she had something to gain, the warm & giggly personality came out. She was also often absent because she volunteered to work with disable people Hmm

She exhibited other behaviours too, for instance she claimed to be proficient in several languages, also she claimed all sorts of other skills (which I've now largely forgotten) but I used to think yeah right at the time. Last time I heard from her, she'd left the corporate world and became a personal trainer.

GrimDamnFanjo · 25/03/2019 17:24

I think I worked for a sociopath in the civil service. A real lack of empathy for people dressed up in charm.
My best friend had NPD - I had no idea until I read about "splitting " which was a perfect description of how he would treat people. He was also a risk taker with a larger than life personality. Knowing this eventually helped me cope with our relationship.

TigerTooth · 25/03/2019 17:33

Before I'd even got to the end of your first post I knew it was a school and that she was a headteacher - I think that women need to be particularly tough to get to the heads position - but many mistake tough for bloody vile and bullying!
So glad I'm
Out of my last one - NW London seems to have more that their share of crazy female heads. Often short hair, bright lips, terrible dress sense and a fondness of spending holidays conquering things(marathons, mountains etc).
It's only my experience but all but 1 female heads I've worked for have been bully's - especially to younger, weaker staff, and all the men have been really reasonable.

Smotheroffive · 25/03/2019 17:37

So,after all this hypothesising, what steps have you taken in terms of evidence against the head to have some action taken over this?

agnurse · 25/03/2019 17:40

I met a psychiatric nurse once who had worked with a sociopath. The patient hadn't committed any major crimes (e.g. he wasn't a murderer), but he had a very long rap sheet of petty crimes. He was reaching a point where his personality disorder was "burning out" - namely, he was beginning to feel guilt and remorse for his actions. He honestly did not know how to deal with those feelings.

(For the record: I met the psychiatric nurse when I was doing my community mental health practicum in nursing school.)

TigerTooth · 25/03/2019 17:42

smotheroffive
You don't - there is such a shortage of head teachers that until the school is failing the L/A will always do nothing. You just have to get out.

Smotheroffive · 25/03/2019 17:46

I hear you, but its not always so easy to just walk away. There should be sanctions if head is crossing boundaries.

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