To question my long held beliefs against capital punishment after what happened to Alesha MacPhail

[Noteventhebirdsareupyet]

Hi all,

I have recently been really shaken by the Alesha MacPhailcase and possibly because I now have a tiny daughter of my own, I am feeling really affected by what has happened.

I have always had reasonably strong views against capital punishment and have often argued that:

No one has the right to take the life of another.

When capital punishment is lawful, mistakes are made and innocent people get killed.

We are supposedly a civilised society.

Often offenders were victims first and therefore need empathy and have been failed by the system.....

However I am now shocked to find myself thinking that if a person can do the things that Aaron Campbell has done to a tiny, innocent girl and show absolutely no remorse, then perhaps instead of spending hundreds of thousands of pounds of taxpayers money keeping him incarcerated and then putting communities at risk upon his release, maybe we as a society should say that this person is intrinsically evil and has no place among us.

I honestly never imagined myself feeling like this and maybe it is because I am now a mother that I do. Surely people like him don't deserve a second chance and should be killed before they ruin more lives.

Am I being unreasonable to feel like this? Has anyone else had a turning point like me? I feel that my family and friends would be a bit shocked to hear me say "let's kill dangerous criminals" but this incident has had a profound effect on my outlook and I feel like I can't voice my opinions out loud.

Ah ok I saw it later on obviously with time delay I couldn't stop thinking about her mum she looked so alonecoming out of court I know that probably doesn't make sense and of course she had support its just heartbreaking.

And I think I'd rather pay for someone to live in prison than live in a society where I could be legally killed

This - I honestly do understand the strength of feeling, but aside from the arguments about innocent people, it removes the concept if rehabilitation - and that's a slippery slope. We start allowing it for certain types of crime, and then what? China being a good example, where many of their estimated 2000 executions a year are carried out for economic crimes, not violent crimes.

Despite the individual being 'only 16', he knew exactly what he was doing, and was cold and calculating, no sympathy at all. All my thoughts and sadness are with this poor little girl and her family, who will never ever see her again, and who was murdered in the most horrific way in a place that was meant to be safe for her!

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-47568603

I feel that we shouldn’t make decisions we wouldn’t be willing to carry out ourselves. I would not want to drag away and kill anyone with my bare hands. Even him. I would not watch a public hanging or beheading. I think no amount of attempts to civilise the act with technology like electric chairs and lethal injection set-ups changes the reality of what’s happening so I don’t think we (as a society) should do it.

UnspiritualHome, since you are determined to dredge up any example of a case where someone was wrongly convicted, what about a hypothetical question: someone is caught raping and killing a child on cctv. You still believe they have a right to life even if they are guilty beyond any doubt whatsoever?

Dredge up a case?! It's not dredging up, it's pointing out the great big fuckoff flaw in the argument for the death penalty.

As for your example, it's inherently implausible given both the low quality of most CCTV footage and the fact that people who want to rape and kill children usually make at least some effort to cover it up. And anyone who does feel like doing it is going to ensure there are no CCTV cameras nearby as soon as this law is on the statute books. So this is a pointless question.

But ok, let's say we institute a rule that the death penalty can be applied to anyone where there's CCTV evidence definitely showing them raping and murdering a child. The number of offences this would cover is going to be zero, if strictly applied. But it wouldn't be, because people make mistakes and some cases get politicised. Sooner or later the safeguards we have available will be eroded if the court and society thinks someone has done something sufficiently awful.

Well people generally choose to break the law in these type of cases. They know it's wrong. But they do it anyway, thinking they won't get caught. I can't see people not committing a crime just because of the death penalty as a deterrent. They'll still think they'll get away with it.

There isn't any evidence that the death penalty for severe crimes reduces the rates.

It's an easy way out though for them. Imagine knowing you'll be in jail for potentially forever. On the other hand imagine he does actually get out after his sentence, he still has many years to live.

However, if they had a referendum I would vote yes to bring it back. I know this view isn't held by most on Mumsnet but I can't think of anyone I know that would vote for no in real life.

He may have only been sentenced to 27 years but he will not ever get out, he will be thoroughly assessed before being considered for release and as it seems totally clear that he has no remorse it doesn't look like he can be rehabilitated so will never not pose a risk to the public. Whatever happens to him now the things he did to that poor little girl can never be undone

No decent nation has capital punishment. Besides, the murderer in this case is 16, and we haven’t had 16 year olds killed since 1933 officially, and no-one under 18 has actually been killed since 1889.
I don’t want to go back to 1889 no matter how evil and sadistic some people are.

I am and have always been opposed to the death penalty, not because I’m some sort of naive bleeding-heart do-gooder (I’m far from it), but because history teaches us that the possibility of miscarriages of justice can never be entirely eliminated.

I do, however, take the view that in particularly appalling cases such as that of Aaron Campbell, Thompson & Venables, Ian Huntley, Adebolajo & Adebowale who murdered Fusilier Lee Rigby etc etc whole life terms are entirely justified. Life should mean Life.

It wasn't OK for him to kill her so it isn't OK to kill him.

That said, life should mean life and his life in prison should be hard. Not because of paedophile hunters threatening him but because of hard graft making something useful of himself.

My opinions/reasons for CP have evolved as I've aged. I do believe that there's a place for CP within society.

In this case, he's admitted it, so there'd be no miscarriage of justice.

Not everyone can be rehabilitated and for such a heinous crime, I think we'd be safer as a society with him dead. I don't believe the prison system rehabilitates many inmates, and I think it's too soft anyway. It's not a punishment, or a deterrent, to most criminals.

In this case, I believe prison is too good for him.
To me, CP is not so much about punishment or acting as a deterrent anyway, and that's beside the point; it's about keeping society safe, and ridding our planet of those that can't be rehabilitated (like pedophiles).
Why waste money keeping him? He doesn't deserve it, and it serves no purpose as he'll never be safe to release.
I would have no qualms executing him, and I believe it would be for the best all round.

Let’s face facts, if he fell down the stairs and broke his neck, very few people would care. Planning a state sanctioned execution is very different. Mistakes would be made and innocent people would be executed.

If you’re worrying about the money consider this. California reintroduced the death penalty a few years ago and have executed 80 since its reintroduction. The amount of money they have spent on the death penalty would have kept those people they executed in prison for more than 300 years. They have executed the innocent.

When you plan to kill someone then they will fight you every step of the way. They will appeal, look for new evidence and hearings, appeal for clemency and all on legal aid.

He will be out by 50. It is a heart breaking crime, disgusting lowlife.
I hope he takes his own life, for public safety.
His mother was a great help in advising the
Police of his strange behaviour on the night.
She must be broken.

I totally loath the 'he was only 16, a child brigade' minimising and excusing this horrendous crime. Aleesha was only 6 a little girl, who had to endure what no adult or child should have to endure from a cold blooded killer who was 2 years off being an adult. As I said, life should be life, he should have the bare minimum to survive in prison, I think that is a very good punishment.

The last face she saw before she died, was not her loving parents, but a cold heartless killer.

There can absolutely be miscarriages of justice when someone has admitted to a crime. I'm not saying there was one in this instance, but people can and do make confessions when they haven't actually done it. The frequent failure to understand this is one of the many reasons we shouldn't have the death penalty.

Changing your mind because of a recent case just indicates to me that you didnt really think about it much before.

Sadly this is not the only time this kind of crime has happened or will happen again

Look at countries around the world with tbe death penalty- a motley crew for sure that iwouldnt want to be part of

I also don't think they should be allowed to keep appealing the decision either.
IMO, the execution should be carried out swiftly, within days of the verdict, and they should not kept alive for years.

I think that the decision to execute should be based on several factors including severity of crime, likelihood of rehabilitation, high proof of guilt, e.g., confession, and it should only be allowed for certain classes of crimes, and it should have to meet all criteria.

There is no such thing as a perfect system therefore it is best to avoid a system with no recourse.

There will always be individual circumstances that make society want to tip that balance, we have to be smarter than that.

The problem with that, Aeroflotgirl, is that prison isn't harsh or uncomfortable. It's way too cushy and they have way too many privileges and time out of their cells. Prison is no longer a punishment or a deterrent. It doesn't seem particularly good at rehabilitation either.

I also don't think they should be allowed to keep appealing the decision either.
IMO, the execution should be carried out swiftly, within days of the verdict, and they should not kept alive for years.

So what happens when new evidence comes to light that indicates they were innocent or might have caused their actions to be seen in a different light? Stand by the grave and say “sorry mate”?

I am against the death sentence.

However, I did follow the case and made the mistake of listening to the live sentencing which was very upsetting. AC is barely a human being. I understand he is young and his mind will continue to evolve but he is as close to a monster as you can get. I don't think he will suddenly develop empathy.

The only 'good' thing about that case is that he was caught early. If he had decided to kill for the first time when he was at uni in a big city, when he was a bit cleverer at covering his tracks, I dread to think what he might've done.

I'm still pretty sure I'm against the death sentence but I hate the fact this guy is alive, costing us money. Ugh.

I hope he'll never get out but I do wonder if, when he's eligible to ask for parole, he'll be clever enough to pretend to be remorseful.

It's understandable that the animal urge for revenge could appear in your heart, but your brain says it's wrong and you follow that. The killer had an urge too. I'm sure his brain said it was wrong as well but he didn't listen.