To question my long held beliefs against capital punishment after what happened to Alesha MacPhail

[Noteventhebirdsareupyet]

Hi all,

I have recently been really shaken by the Alesha MacPhailcase and possibly because I now have a tiny daughter of my own, I am feeling really affected by what has happened.

I have always had reasonably strong views against capital punishment and have often argued that:

No one has the right to take the life of another.

When capital punishment is lawful, mistakes are made and innocent people get killed.

We are supposedly a civilised society.

Often offenders were victims first and therefore need empathy and have been failed by the system.....

However I am now shocked to find myself thinking that if a person can do the things that Aaron Campbell has done to a tiny, innocent girl and show absolutely no remorse, then perhaps instead of spending hundreds of thousands of pounds of taxpayers money keeping him incarcerated and then putting communities at risk upon his release, maybe we as a society should say that this person is intrinsically evil and has no place among us.

I honestly never imagined myself feeling like this and maybe it is because I am now a mother that I do. Surely people like him don't deserve a second chance and should be killed before they ruin more lives.

Am I being unreasonable to feel like this? Has anyone else had a turning point like me? I feel that my family and friends would be a bit shocked to hear me say "let's kill dangerous criminals" but this incident has had a profound effect on my outlook and I feel like I can't voice my opinions out loud.

The issue is that if criminals know there is a death penalty they are more likely to kill their victims to prevent them testifying

Proof? Not goading, but curious. I thought criminals really didn’t think too much about consequences, that’s why it’s not an effective deterrent in the first place

Mmm, I have no idea if it was relevant here but it's all very worrying.

He’s not right in the head is he. I worry as a society how we’ve missed that. I don’t want other mentally ill people state murdered

He is not mentally ill! Why do people keep saying this, its as if some people just can't accept that there is "bad" people in the world! He certainly sounds like a psychopath.

He certainly wasn't wired right he didn't seem to have any boundries did what he liked but he wasn't mentally ill.

I honestly do not believe in good and bad people. I used to, but good people do bad things and bad people do good things. It’s not black and white.

Jail is proper retribution? I don’t see how? Please explain ....

The principle behind retribution is that it's proportional to the offence and held to be deserved. Because of that proportionality it's different to revenge, which is why many feel it's important for the kind of balanced society I mentioned

How many people on this thread who are saying prison is a soft option have actually spent any time in a prison?

Quite honestly in this moment, yes. If AC was in front of me and I had a shotgun, I'd do small girls everywhere a favour and get rid of him.

That would really help your own daughter wouldn’t it, going to prison for 15 years or whatever. He’s safe now away from young girls where he is and chances are he’ll never be released.

He’s not right in the head is he. I worry as a society how we’ve missed that. I don’t want other mentally ill people state murdered

For fucks sake, why do people keep insisting he’s mentally ill? Nothing was “missed”. Do you understand that people accused of murder have to be examined by 2 psychiatrists before they can even stand trial, and that’s not even taking into account the further examinations there have been here prior to conviction. Stop talking nonsense and actually just educate yourself on the publicly revealed comments on the case which disclose that AC had NO mental illness or disorder of any kind.

YouBumder - and as I keep on repeating the alternative to claiming that he’s not mentally ill is what ? That he’s a beast, a monster, sub human? Clearly none of that is true either ... so there is an issue. Just because it’s not immediately apparent doesn’t mean it’s not there.

Just as a personal family example, it’s tsken nearly 30 years for my uncle to be diagnosed and his medication accurately prescribed.

And the diagnosis must have changed at least 5 times that I know of in that time period, probably down to environmental factors.

He is likely to be psychopathic which is not a mental illness but a personality disorder. He’s going to have had and will continue to have very, very many assessments into his mental state. It’s really not likely that something has been missed. People just for some reason seem to be unwilling to accept that some people just do fucking horrible things and there’s no explanation for it. AC isn’t the first such offender and he won’t be the last.

We’ll have to agree to disagree. There’s always an explanation we just don’t know what it is yet.

Is there a difference in terms of moral responsibility between having a mental illness and having a personality disorder? Does either person have the same level of free will over what they do as, say, I would? It is an interesting (and disturbing) area.

The Royal college of Psychiatrists in 2002 removed any difference, a personality disorder is a mental illness

Poor little girl had 117 injuries on her body.

If there was capital punishment still, I'd hope this sick bastard would be at the front of the queue.

If she were my child, I'd hang him myself.

I'm actually going to agree that Arron Campbell's brain is wired differently and there will be a reason for that. He has traits on the psychopathy scale sure but the same was said about Mary Bell who is very much not a psychopath but was a child extremely damaged by horrific physical and sexual abuse. He could have a personality disorder- 16 is just a bit young to be diagnosed.

At some point more may come out about his "less than ideal" childhood. Almost all of the infamous serial killers have awful childhoods. That doesn't mean I feel sorry for them or think they're less culpable, they're not. Just that there will probably be an explanation for what went wrong with his mind.

I’m in the ‘hangings too good for him’ camp. I do not think capital punishment is adequate retribution, it’s an easy way out. He should have to live with the consequences of his actions and given the judge felt the chance of rehabilitation was extremely slim, he shouldn’t be afforded such opportunities.

As much as I hate the thought of the sheer cost to the taxpayer to keep him behind bars, that is where he has to stay.

In my less charitable moments I think he should be kept amongst the general prison population, in solitary confinement, or with the threat that his door is never locked and therefore with the constant fear that fellow prisoners will set upon him. The impact on him mentally would be his punishment.

He should have to live with the consequences of his actions

He won’t. He doesn’t seem to care about all.

To expand on that, I only think it only works with a Chris Watts type, who really did seem to love his children.

....now if someone could tape their photos to his wall....

I don't think people like A C are ever sorry they don't seem to have the capacity for remorse they willfeel sorry for themselves bang on about their rights but will never have a lightbulb moment of the pain and suffering they have caused.

No, not in rage and anger.

Would you actually kill someone quietly, calmly, by appointment and under orders from above? Because that is what you are calling for when you want the death penalty.

I understand rage and vegeance and lose no sleep when people get what is coming to them as a natural result of their actions.

But I do not want to live in a society where someone can order someone elses death. Really think about what you are saying.

No shotguns at a distance, too messy. You would need to do this personally or require that it was someone's job.

Maybe a medical professional? Someone who knows what they are doing? Someone trained to sace lives who is open to deliberately ending them instead? Think

What we do with our worst defines who we are at our best. So we put them away from other people, we give them to basics. If you want harsher penalties you will need to have a look at the whole justice system because ad I understand it if the penalties are too harsh juries are less likely to convict as they don't want it on their conscious. So by advocating for a return of the death penalty you will likely see more monsters go free.

Or perhaps we do away with juries? Just have judges deciding who lives and who dies?

Just think.

understand it if the penalties are too harsh juries are less likely to convict as they don't want it on their conscious. So by advocating for a return of the death penalty you will likely see more monsters go free.

Good point.

It’s one of these things that people are quite happy to think we should have the DP and other people be executioners but I doubt there are many people who would actually take that step themselves to kill someone. I know I wouldn’t so why would I expect someone else to do it.

So by advocating for a return of the death penalty you will likely see more monsters go free

Not really. You do know they can opt not to give the death penalty as well, don’t you? They are given a range of options and this is stressed to jurors.

Yes, I am aware of the basics for how juries are informed and also that they do not decide on the sentence. Only whether the person is guilty or not.

Think about how you raise the stakes in a jury room when you add death as a possible outcome of their decision.