...to be sick of women being made to feel uncool for feeling insecure about their husbands female friends?

[Alphabetsoup4]

Is it just me?

There are often threads here from women, girlfriends, wives who have husbands who have a ‘close female friend’ and are exclusive of the wife/gf. Often they get told on MN that they are jealous, insecure and controlling for feeling uncomfortable.

Isn’t this a case of other women being a bit misogynistic towards a poster feeling insecure?

Why on earth is it ‘cool’ to be oh so fine with your man having as many close female relationships as he likes?

And why is it assumed that cheating only ever happens because the man is going to cheat anyway, it’s hard wired? That it doesn’t matter whether they have female friendships are not.

I don’t understand and I think we are in danger of putting ourselves down as women telling others not to trust their instincts.

Why aren’t healthy boundaries cool? I think that they are.

That’s not to say that opposite sex friendships are banned, but there is a healthy balance.

Unless a woman is being very jealous, not letting her partner look at another woman etc, then I’d say 90% of these posts are from women who really are being disrespected and demeaned by their partners.

Just feel a bit depressed to see so many women be put down for this!

In this instance it's a dodgy "friendship" causing jealousy. Is it not best for a man not to have such friendships? Shouldn't women, out of some sisterly spirit, be decent to each other too, and not cause each other some aggravation by cosying up to an attached man and pose it as friendship?

But I can't control how a woman I may never or barely have met perceives my friendship with her boyfriend/husband. That she may share the (to me) outdated, sexist and weirdly binary views held by some on this thread is not something I can, or should, do anything about.

LyingWitchInTheWardrobe
I see. I never had a jealous boyfriend/husband. I was a jealous wife in 1st marriage and relaxed chilled gf and a good friend with my partner's ex in my other relationship. It;s the men's attitude which I was reacting to: either being mistrustful or trusting. I do change my behaviour if it hurts my partner. I guess I've always been lucky not to be with those men who would abuse it.

Copperplate
That she [a woman I may never or barely have met] may share the (to me) outdated, sexist and weirdly binary views held by some on this thread is not something I can, or should, do anything about
but you could, whenever you met her, talk to her, or give her some attention, not huge amount but some human interest in another human - and take it from there. If she is rude/suspicious still, - her fault, you've tried your best. Chances are the ice will be broken and she will be nice back, all win. You probably already said you did, I get confused with many nicknames I respond here to, really sorry.
My problem is when opposite sex friends make no effort whatsoever to meet the partners of their friends and then wonder why they are disliked and mistrusted.

LyingWitch even if it was a new, few months old friendship I would say I was invested, as I liked the man (although platonically), he was very similar to me and we had some things in common. I don't necessarily value old friendships over the new, budding ones; old ones were new at some point. But if you are saying I didn't have to lose an old friend, then you are right, and my friendships with men aren't that old as those with women

That's the thing, we all use our own reference points in responding on this thread

Exactly this. I've sadly seen a few too many relationships among my social circle, where a friendship has crossed the line into affair. I've seen it often in the workplace. So I'm a lot more wary of male/female friendships. They may not start out attracted to each other but it can grow over time. Whereas if they hadn't spent all that time together the attraction/attachment probably wouldn't have formed. Likewise maybe they won't ever be attracted to each other. But no one can say at the start of a new friendship whether they will end up attracted to the person or not.

That's why for me I would never expect a male partner to give up long term female friends. Because I would think, well if they were going to get together they would have done by now.

But I would be wary of new friendships my partner formed with women. Going out in a group related to how they met, say work or hobby? Fine. One on one "dates" not fine.

I'm not against man-woman friendships, the good decent kind you and other posters describe. I'm against the kind which hurts the partner because there is this sexual thing in in, an ego boost for both, and where the two "friends" pretend that the put out partner is just "neurotic".

Yes this! Put very well.

It’s a little wearing and a thin argument to:

• pretend there is never, ever an attraction or sexual element in BFFs.
• to say any level of BFF friendship, including emotional affairs, are totally fine
• that there are no red flags or lines that can’t be crossed emotionally, that sexual infidelity is the only boundary.
• that people will either cheat or they won’t. Environment is never a factor.
• there is no damage done by too close BFFs
• that if a marriage fails, including with kids, that BFFs are never part of the cause.
• that the man’s marriage does not come first, that their friendship is more important.

And that anyone, including a wife who in uncomfortable is:

• always abusive, controlling, jealous, dangerously insecure.
• not able to see men and women as able to be friends ever.
• not able to see commonalities and similarities between sexes.
• too set in gender differences and see sex in every opposite sex interaction.
• do not have trustworthy husbands.
• part of the Amish community.

part of the Amish community

Sorry OP, that made me chuckle
Agree with your post though.

I just don’t need exclusive friendships with men. I don’t really know why that is. I remember, at uni, there was a certain type of young woman that would act “laddish” just to hang around men. Some women were, by their own confession, in the female rugby team, just to hangout with the male rugby team - purely as friends you understand. They were always the ones to act bizarrely when any of “their men” suddenly dropped them like hot bricks for the new girlfriend (who had no interest whatsoever in rugby or football or whatever it was). Making a big deal of their “friendship” and “shared history” etc - when, tbh, the men didn’t give a hoot and just enjoyed the attention. I think it’s memories of this kind of behaviour by women at uni that has largely put me off making the effort to have male friends because a lot of them appeared as very insecure and OTT about the whole thing and you wonder why they bothered.

I don’t mean to accuse anyone on here if that. Not at all. But that’s just my experience.

I just don’t need exclusive friendships with men

In what way do you think friendships of this nature are "exclusive"?

Oh dear...I daredn't mention that I met one of my closest friends playing rugby....although ironically he had faked an interest in rugby because all his housemates were into it. I had the genuine interest. We're still good friends - we just don't talk about rugby because he's not interested

I actually don't disagree that if you're in a relationship, hanging out with someone who has expressed a ROMANTIC interest in you is not on. But that is completely different from a friendship. The problem is that for some people, like Pa1oma even completely innocuous things like texting frequently or going for cocktails are apparently crossing a boundary, and any friend who doesn't "back off" when their male friend gets a girlfriend is apparently disrespectful. Honestly, I find that hilariously ridiculous. If I had a female friend with these views I would tell them they are being ridiculous. If I went on a date with a man with these views, he'd probably be a hot topic of conversation in my whatsapp group (of female friends) where we'd all have a good laugh at him

I have to say though in 20+ years of playing and coaching rugby, the number of women who do it for any other reason than they like rugby is vanishingly small.

I mean you get the shit kicked out of you for one thing

This discussion is really interesting as it’s exactly touches the situation in my own life. I’m a separated single mum and I’ve started seeing a guy who lives about an hour from me and who has a lot of long standing female friends. Very few male ones. I’m mainly fine with him seeing them - he even went on holiday with one - as I trust him, they were there before me, I have been accused of being controlling in the past and am trying to reform. There is one female friend of his I’m less sure about. He admits he fancies her and asked her out a few years back but she turned him down. They meet up every so often - she lives much nearer - including recently for a coffee in town on a Sat morning. He and I were due to go out Sat eve and to speak Sat morning to finalise plans. Only we didn’t speak because he dropped everything to meet up with this friend. No crisis she just wanted to chat about her recent holiday. I don’t think I’m insecure or controlling but I’m still not ok with this. I’m due to meet her and maybe I will feel differently. But right now, it feels like he prioritised her over me which coupled with the attraction thing doesn’t feel too great. He hated me bringing it up - said I was jealous and controlling. All I know is that if he can’t manage the friendship in a way that makes me feel ok, I’m not going to carry on seeing him. It seems to me he wants a girlfriend and also lots of validation from female friends including one he fancies. He’s free to make that choice and I’m free to choose not to be with him 😊

He’s free to make that choice and I’m free to choose not to be with him

That’s a really great way of thinking - I don’t think you are controlling because you acknowledge his free choice. The fact he has been attracted to her is different from a platonic friendship for me.

I agree that we all filter these things through our own experiences, and I guess maybe everyone on this thread is falling into the trap of generalizing based on that. Of course it must be wearying to hear that these friendships are NEVER inappropriate, but of course, it's also wearying to hear that they ALWAYS are.

I suspect it's also very complex because similar language can be used in very different situations. Alphabetsoup4 has the experience of her DH having a very inappropriate relationship with a female friend and I have the experience of a very controlling and borderline abusive partner who portrayed all of my friendships as inappropriate. Both she and Alphabet use the same kind of phrasing which makes I'm sure makes it difficult for us to communicate in some ways.

Pandaponda that's different though. He has admitted he fancies her. He would be with her if she said yes.

He’s free to make that choice and I’m free to choose not to be with him

I think your position is perfectly reasonable, especially given the history of attraction on his side, Pandaponda.

I think it’s memories of this kind of behaviour by women at uni that has largely put me off making the effort to have male friends because a lot of them appeared as very insecure and OTT about the whole thing and you wonder why they bothered.

But Pa1oma, you say yourself this was the behaviour of one group of extremely young women at one university -- that seems a pretty flimsy basis on which to reject the entire possibility of genuine male-female friendships?

I mean, if I thought the behaviour of one particular group from my undergraduate days was some kind of guide the way things really are, I would think that all young women are getting teaching degrees to go back home and teach in their hometowns, marry the boy next door and replicate as far as possible their parents' lives, or, alternatively that all languages students do Erasmus years abroad purely as a chance to experiment sexually with people they'll never have to see again.

But these people, like most students, were teenagers, barely adults, away from home for the first time and trying to figure out friendships and sex and what crowd they wanted to run with and what kind of life they wanted -- I don't think I would let the behaviour of one group of people from my past dictate who I make friends with as an adult.

It does, as you say, sound like a lot of effort to pretend to like playing rugby for years, just to have a posse of male pseudo-friends. But the university years are like that for some people -- trying on identities, desperate attempts to fit in and find your tribe. One would hope adults have figured that stuff out and just make friends with people they are naturally drawn to, of either sex.

Panda - I’m so sorry to hear you’re going through such nonsense. Can I just say, it’s NOT you who needs to “reform”. Change that mindset straight away - please! Why are you entertaining any of this for 5 minutes ? If he makes you feel needy in the early stages, just imagine the set-up 5 or 10 years down the line. How dare he dump you for this woman! The fool. No don’t bother meeting her. Dump him instead. Any other man would be bending over backwards to prioritise you and make you feel special. I actually can’t believe people carry in like this. Who the hell does he think he is? Let him get on with his little entourage and don’t waste another second on this crap.

Copper - yes I hear what you’re saying, but maybe you know the type of woman I mean? I’ve encountered them at work as well. Fortunately they’re few and far between in the social circle I have these days, but I just find the whole thing mind-numbing to even think about.

He hated me bringing it up - said I was jealous and controlling.

Interesting.

All I know is that if he can’t manage the friendship in a way that makes me feel ok, I’m not going to carry on seeing him. It seems to me he wants a girlfriend and also lots of validation from female friends including one he fancies. He’s free to make that choice and I’m free to choose not to be with him

Yup. This. Exactly.

My advice to you is, get in a bunker and await incoming fire from MN posters.

Basically I think the vast majority of us are saying the same thing.

It IS controlling to object to a souses friends simply because of their sex.

It ISN’T an issue to express concern about any particular relationship that might ring alarm bells (provided the reason isn’t simply “they’re the opposite sex”).

It is perfectly possible for men and women to be friends with no agenda beyond friendship.

It's too subjective a question to give a 'global' answer to, imho. Sometimes these friendships are innocent, sometimes they're not.

Genuinely though, I do not know anyone who would leave their husband at home and go out for dinner with a new male friend. The very idea would be ridiculous.

Is it generational? Is it a London thing? Because it just does not happen in my circle (50 something professionals, north west).

Yes I agree - Although it’s perfectly possible to have opposite sex “best friends” or whatever you want to call them, the majority of these relationships will be more hassle than they’re worth. Even it’d there is genuinely no sexual tension on either side, the friendship is still likely to cause problems when and if either side get into a romantic relationship. Not in all cases, but I would say this is the case most of the time. It’s for this reason most people just don’t bother.

Put it this way, if some man announced to my DH he was my new “BF” and we’d be meeting on a one-to-one for drinks or whatever, he’d get extremely short shrift.

No it is most certainly not a London thing Tinkly! Not the London I know at least.

I am not the mythical cool woman either and I don't pretend to be.
I think it's bullshit this idea that it's okay for a man or woman to have close, exclusive friends of the opposite sex.
It's why there is so much cheating. If you are serious about your marriage then you invest in it and the necessary, healthy boundaries that entails.
Can my DH have female friends? Of course. However they tend to be his pal's wives or my pals etc and he doesn't have cosy nights out with them alone. He tends to see them on group get togethers. If he wants to socialise without me it tends to be with his male friends.
This to me is a normal marriage.

I think it's bullshit this idea that it's okay for a man or woman to have close, exclusive friends of the opposite sex

Cool, so don’t have one then: don’t tell the rest of us are wrong.

It's why there is so much cheating

I’ve never cheated

If you are serious about your marriage then you invest in it and the necessary, healthy boundaries that entails

Yes absolutely. And both myself and my ex-husband were happy that healthy boundaries included friendships of the other sex. Neither of us were interested because, you know, that can happen.