...to be sick of women being made to feel uncool for feeling insecure about their husbands female friends?

[Alphabetsoup4]

Is it just me?

There are often threads here from women, girlfriends, wives who have husbands who have a ‘close female friend’ and are exclusive of the wife/gf. Often they get told on MN that they are jealous, insecure and controlling for feeling uncomfortable.

Isn’t this a case of other women being a bit misogynistic towards a poster feeling insecure?

Why on earth is it ‘cool’ to be oh so fine with your man having as many close female relationships as he likes?

And why is it assumed that cheating only ever happens because the man is going to cheat anyway, it’s hard wired? That it doesn’t matter whether they have female friendships are not.

I don’t understand and I think we are in danger of putting ourselves down as women telling others not to trust their instincts.

Why aren’t healthy boundaries cool? I think that they are.

That’s not to say that opposite sex friendships are banned, but there is a healthy balance.

Unless a woman is being very jealous, not letting her partner look at another woman etc, then I’d say 90% of these posts are from women who really are being disrespected and demeaned by their partners.

Just feel a bit depressed to see so many women be put down for this!

Honestly Pa1oma and Bloody I don’t get what you don’t get about this. There are plenty of times myself and my male friends have been single at the same time. I’m an attractive woman. Some of my friends are attractive, but appreciating that someone is good looking isn’t the same as fancying them. Did either of us make a play for each other when single? NO WE DID NOT! Because that element literally DOES NOT EXIST in our friendships. If I fancy someone and I’m meeting them for drinks in the hope it’ll lead to sex or a relationship, that’s not a friendship is it? It’s dating!

What’s wrong with having text conversations with male friends? I met a couple of my good male friends on Tinder and we didn’t fancy each other, but got on well so stayed in touch. We text each other silly jokes and catch up every few days. Both now have girlfriends, one of whom I’ve met regularly and I’m friends with, and the other I’ve not met as she’s new but he tells me about her and I take an interest. If either of them said they had to ‘back off’ because they were now in relationships I’d find it ridiculous, and gently explain that I didn’t fancy them.

Honestly, did you two grow up in an Amish community or something? I’ve genuinely never met anyone with such extreme puritanical views in my entire life

I can’t imagine being in a relationship with somebody I couldn’t trust on a night out with women colleagues. What sort of life would that be? I’d rather be single.

Alphabetsoup4

To me, that sounds like internalised misogyny, a narrative that any woman stepping outside the expectations of their gender must have an ulterior motive hostile to other women or supplicatory towards men. In the past, such views led to a very sexist society. Is it really so hard to imagine that women may honestly have views and interests outside the 'traditionally feminine' box, including a capacity to share interests and friendships with men that are not built on a restrictively sexualised basis?

Yes of course lots of women have more ‘male’ interests. However the woman who says I like men because ‘all’ women are.... derogatory term are being the misogynistic one. Or can only men put women down?

Which gets back to my original point. I read a lot of threads where I think 90% of the women’s instincts are right, their DH is having an emotional affair and/or using his friendship to up his power balance in the relationship. It’s starting to become emotionally p abusive towards the wife I think and then to see women also called uncool and controlling when they post on MN worries me.

I know when DH had his FF and went through a period ‘to hell with you (me) - I can spend as much time with anyone as you like’ - and I just shut up, the doubt I felt about myself was similar to the ghosting that happens in affairs / abusive relationships. It was awful.

snout - well that’s all very well - for you. Supposing one of your male friends’ new girlfriends did have a problem with you though and asked him not to see you alone. Would you accept that and back off? Or would you give him a guilt trip over it?

I am highly suspicious of anyone who says ‘I don’t want to be friends with X grouping’ – I think it’s not a healthy attitude to have at all. I also think those women are basically the flip side of some of the attitudes expressed here – that women should be XYZ and men are QPD and both should stay in their lane and not cross over.

I also think it’s quite unhealthy to tell men and women constantly that if you like someone and want to spent time with them, that means you want to shag them. I have had a number of awful relationships when younger which were actually great platonic friendships and could have stayed friendships but I tried to turn into relationships because I was confused about how to express these feelings. Then I found out that I was stuck dating some dude that I actually wasn’t that keen on naked at all.

I think we should all try and focus a bit more on ‘we can all be friends with anyone, every relationship should have its own boundaries, and we can all be nice to each other and try and trust in humanity a bit more’.

Why does it worry you? Does it hit a nerve because somewhere deep down you know it IS controlling? Honestly, if I had a male friend with a girlfriend who told him which friends he was and wasn’t allowed to see, I’d tell him to end it with her. I’d say the same to a female friend with a boyfriend trying to police her friendships. Everyone I know would find that an unacceptable dynamic. And Mephistophiles is right (I think they were being sarcastic earlier with the ‘cool girl’ thing) it is internalised misogyny. I said the same earlier in the thread.

And no, I don’t say ‘I get on better with men because women are XYZ’. Men and women are people - some are lovely, some are arseholes. I judge people on how they treat others and their general worldview, not their sex. I also couldn’t give two hoots what men think of me, I’m certainly not seeking their approval. Again, if a man expressed a desire for me to do things a certain way to please him, he’d be out of my life very quickly

Supposing one of your male friends’ new girlfriends did have a problem with you though and asked him not to see you alone. Would you accept that and back off? Or would you give him a guilt trip over it?

I wouldn't guilt trip anyone. I'd feel a bit sorry for my friend, having been in that kind of controlling relationship and it having sucked. But all you can do is let people know you are there if they need you and let them make their own choices.

Supposing one of your male friends’ new girlfriends did have a problem with you though and asked him not to see you alone. Would you accept that and back off? Or would you give him a guilt trip over it?

I'd tell him that I thought his girlfriend was controlling and that he could do a lot better.

See above, Paloma - I’d advise him not to date such a controlling person

I agree with much of the above @forests however I do think the everyone should just be nice ignores the obvious. We ignore the obvious and that’s when the problems start.

My DH was totally ignoring the obvious. That he actually had zero in common with FF except she was attractive and needy, that he was letting her lead the intensity, he was too socially blind to see it. The fact that she was female made it worse, as no way he’d have put up with the same with his male friendships he would have ended it a lot sooner!

So by ignoring the elephant in the room, they basically embarked on an emotional affair.

Alphabetsoup4 I think forestafantastica's point about flipsides is an excellent one. Sexist prejudice is ugly, whatever the format, and often comes from a place of insecurity.

And I was definitely being sarcastic about 'cool girls'. My partner loves beer, gaming (Dungeons and Dragons ftw!) and was ostracised by sexist women and men until she got to university and found her tribe. When she saw feminists unironically sharing that Gone Girl paragraph she rejected the ideology, despite being very invested in gender equality due to her early life experiences. The concept makes me very very angry due to the hurt it caused her.

“I’d tell him that I thought his girlfriend was controlling and that he could do a lot better.”

Really? And you don’t see how this might be putting your friend in a difficult position?

Why would you presume he should put you above his girlfriend?

Why would you presume anything?

It’s this kind of attitude that is exactly the problem.

I have male friends, however i dont get too close as neither my dp or their partners would like it.

@snout and holyforking that is what happened to me. FF actually very, very angry and told DH and all my friends I was a controlling bitch!

I didn’t even ask him to end it.

This was really quite nasty of FF I believe and stirred up really bad crap for me in numerous ways. I was struggling with a baby. I think that’s quite unfair and very damaging. In fact I think telling your male friend his wife is controlling if she objects is quite manipulative and abusive. A real friend would be concerned and look at their own actions and what might have caused it.

*Why would you presume he should put you above his girlfriend?

Why would you presume anything? *

He shouldn't put me "above" anyone, as having friends doesn't put them "above" a partner. The point is he shouldn't have to choose between friends and a partner, and a normal healthy partner wouldn't ask him to make that choice! No-one needs a partner that controls them and polices who they can and can't be friends with - and everyone CAN do better than that and should never settle for these types of controlling jealous relationships. Obviously he doesn't have to take my advice, he's a free person.

I presume that if his girlfriend is policing his actions, that she's controlling, because that's the definition of controlling.

*Really? And you don’t see how this might be putting your friend in a difficult position?

Why would you presume he should put you above his girlfriend?

Why would you presume anything?

It’s this kind of attitude that is exactly the problem.*

In fact I think telling your male friend his wife is controlling if she objects is quite manipulative and abusive. A real friend would be concerned and look at their own actions and what might have caused it.

So when my girlfriend gave me a list of three people in the world I was permitted to be alone with, and had a screaming fit at me because I went out wearing make up to meet a bloke who I was working on a uni project with, and insisted that if I loved her, I wouldn't go out to see a film she didn't want to see, my friends should have supported her and backed off so I was even more isolated?

@mephistoclese I’m sorry about your friend that sounds tough. I like D&D and used to like beer! Never met anyone who had a problem with it but sorry for your friend anyway.

I do just know a fair few women who put down other women through their I’m so cool and you are not attitude. To me the crucial part is if a woman is putting down other women - by their comments or actions. The I love beer but look at you with your pathetic G&T. Other than that I love people not being put in boxes, it’s much more interesting.

I don’t think being aware of risks and realities of potentially competitive relationships is something that should mean you also believe women should be women and men should be men. They are not exclusive.

@Alphabetsoup4 - You have a DP problem not a "FF" problem.

The point is he shouldn't have to choose between friends and a partner, and a normal healthy partner wouldn't ask him to make that choice!

THIS! To be honest, if any of my male friends were dating someone who asked them to stop seeing their female friends, I'm 99% sure they'd dump them, because no reasonable person would put up with that. I'd dump a man telling me I couldn't see male friends alone, and I'd expect my friends - male and female - to be very concerned for me if I ended up in a relationship where that was happening.

Alphabet it's all very well to say 'don't put other women down' but women aren't a homogenous group, just like men aren't. Some women are fucking awful (and I'd put the friend police in that group). I'm not going to support someone just by virtue of them having a vagina. Just like I don't fancy all people who have a penis!

And yes, I do think friends who've been in your life for donkey's years should come before a new partner, but I don't even think of it that way. Life isn't a competition. There's room for friends and relationships in life

A list of 3 friends is very controlling though! That’s pretty clear isn’t it?
I mean you hadn’t crossed any boundaries at all had you? She was out of order.

It’s where the power lies - that is telling.

If instead you both had FFs, but you started on an emotional affair, being very intimate, exclusive, hogging your time more and more away from your relationship so that the lines got blurred, and your DP said she was feeling uncomfortable, and was hurt, didn’t want to come across as jealous but loved you and felt that you were no longer just two people on the relationship?

Then your FF told you DP was being controlling, and horrible and to leave her. Surely that is wrong and quite abusive?

@snout exactly women aren’t a homogenous group so any woman who puts down ‘all’ women e,g, I love men more because women are so gossipy is annoying and I steer well clear!

I don’t see the issue here. You don’t like your duh having female friends but are ok with male friends? Or you want to control all of their life?

I have some close male friends I’ve never been involved romantically with. If a dp or she told me he was jealous of them, I’d think he was controlling.

Just because you are in a couple doesn’t mean you have to have the same friends!

*'he been banging some coke head whore work colleague

THAT’S misogyny ^^'*

Nope, Chebby, it's hurt, grief, anger and feeling like you've had your trust, time and emotions abused.

@cole well I had both a DH and FF problem! I would have left DH rather than tell him to do anything. He either loves me and respects me or he doesn’t. However FF has been spreading malicious hurtful things about me because she blames me for not having DH as her friend! Woah!