To agree with Piers Morgan..

[Science9]

I find Piers Morgan insufferable at the best of times, but I was watching him debate with a guest re Primarks new gender neutral changing rooms and I found myself agreeing with him completely. I know it's not unreasonable to agree with someone but I wanted to see if i was inthe minority by being really annoyed and worried about this and how things are going in regards to single sex spaces? I am a regular primark shopper and I usually take a big bag of stuff in to try on and their changing rooms have the worst flimsy curtains as it is- I already get majorly self conscious when the curtain doesn't fully shut (it never does) but the thought of men being in the opposite cubicle rather than another woman is mortifying for me and I am just going to have to shop elsewhere. I just worry this is going to be the start of losing single sex toilets and changing areas altogether which would be hell for me. Before anyone says it, I have no problem with trans people!

@Teentimestwo

It is not OK for 'woke' or pressurised companies to be removing sex segregated spaces for changing or toilets without risk assessment and understanding of why we have them in the first place. Sex segregated spaces are permitted by law for very good reasons. Those reasons haven't magically disappeared in the last few years, whatever some activists may choose to say.

Exactly this. And people can piss off with this nonsense that they keep spouting, about 'how women need to stop being ashamed of periods.' Just keep your nasty passive aggressive agenda to yourself. NO-ONE is 'ashamed' of periods OR ashamed of their bodies, so just stop.

Women are entitled to want privacy when they are getting changed in a public clothes store - or anywhere else. And the 'all baps and fannies out' brigade can keep their weird toxic bullshit to themselves! Trying to make women feel bad or guilty or weird, for not wanting other people - including trans women, and men - see their body.

@BlooperReel

Instead of keeping asking why so many women do not want unisex/gender neutral spaces, why don't we ask why men do want them, why are there people pushing so hard for this?

Exactly! Someone out there has an agenda, and someone is desperate to invade womens safe spaces. It's toxic and twisted and nasty, and it's disgusting that it's allowed to happen.

Thank fuck, that the majority of posters on here, can see it's out of order, and not acceptable. I can't believe any woman thinks it's OK, and can only surmise that the few supporters of it (on here) are men. (Or women who have NEVER been harassed by men!)

I seriously question the moral fibre of any woman who thinks this is OK, and don't even get me started on the poster who said we are going overboard on womens safety! Are you for real?! And I also and think someone at Primark needs the sack!

@Lweji

Look, are we going to start campaigning for separate public transport or to have sex segregation of doctors or health technicians? Sex separated shops? There have to be limits.

What a stupid, pointless straw-man piece of bullshit. I don't even know where to start with it! You clearly didn't read this before you posted it!

I would hate it. I would feel really uncomfortable about a man "accidentally" opening the curtain. If they are cubicles with floor to ceiling walls then I would be okay. My daughters primary school has just redesigned their toilets and built gender neutral toilets and they haven't got floor to ceiling height walls. My daughter now refuses to use the loo at school, not only is there now urine everywhere the boys look under the doors. Girls have to ask to use the teacher toilet which is in the main reception if they want privacy during their period.

It is fact that there are men who will:

And do all sorts of things in men's bathrooms in relation to men and boys.
As well as installing whatever in single sex female toilets if they want.

True. But at least the current single sex spaces acknowledge/signal/respect that this is unacceptable.

Making changing rooms unisex signals that, on a societal level, no one really cares what they do.

And it still boils down to consent.

One person says yes to sex, the other says no. No wins.
One person says yes to having a third child, the other says no. No wins.
One person says "I need an organ", the other says, "I dont want to donate my organs". No wins.
Doctor says, "this procedure will help you", patient says, "no". No wins.
School says, "we want to put photos of children on the website", parent says no. No wins.

So why should it be different for single sex spaces?

Oh and the fact that some men assault other men/boys is horrific. But it doesn't make it ok to extend that risk to women too when it is currently safeguarded against as far as is possible to do so.

Not sure why you are so keen to make things easier for the predators and n'er do wells to get access to their victims?

Why change it to make it worse when there is no need?

(not to mention the "what about the men" diversions. they can sort their own issues - that they are making for themselves - out, quite frankly)

Are you irrationally arguing that U.K. shops are likely to be immune from this trend simply because thus far we don’t have any data on the issue?

I'm not saying shops are immune. I'm saying it's a different environment. People rarely get fully undressed (if at all) in shop changing rooms, and are not asleep like in wards. It is, quite the opposite, irrational to suggest that it's the same.

The Target study isn't good enough.

It isn't a study; it is evidence of why mixed-sex changing rooms are a bad idea.

South Korea is experiencing what The Guardian calls an "epidemic" of men placing spycams in hotel rooms to spy on women: www.theguardian.com/world/2019/mar/21/arrests-over-hotel-spycam-porn-ring-that-filmed-1600-guests-across-south-korea.

But are we making the decision based on fear?

Personal experience in my case. Personal preference on others.

www.theguardian.com/world/2018/jul/03/a-part-of-daily-life-south-korea-confronts-its-voyeurism-epidemic-sexual-harassment

What a stupid, pointless straw-man piece of bullshit. I don't even know where to start with it! hmm You clearly didn't read this before you posted it!

It's not even remotely as stupid or pointless strawman bullshit as comparing shops with hospital wards.

It isn't a study; it is evidence of why mixed-sex changing rooms are a bad idea.

You clearly don't know what is a study, nor evidence.

Not sure why you are so keen to make things easier for the predators and n'er do wells to get access to their victims?

Because thinking critically is hard and people are lazy.

So why should it be different for single sex spaces?

Because it is women saying "no" and men saying "yes" and men's demands will always trumps women's rights.

It's not even remotely as stupid or pointless strawman bullshit as comparing shops with hospital wards.

They are both gender spaces where people are changing and/or partially clothed.

@Lweji

It's not even remotely as stupid or pointless strawman bullshit as comparing shops with hospital wards.

WTAF are you about? Are you on glue?

Lweji - you asked if there was evidence for assaults in shop changing rooms, you were given a list of examples and now you’re tantruming.

Because it is women saying "no" and men saying "yes" and men's demands will always trumps women's rights.

Exactly.

The fact there are so many women falling over themselves to support it is baffling.

I recently had a mass trying on session in a well known High St store - like 30+ items. It was late at night and I was one of very few customers in the store, and the only customer in the changing rooms.

The cubicle was spacious and very high walled - maybe 10' high with about 1" under the door. Outside I could hear the sales assistant re-merchandising clothes and chatting to passing colleagues.

Even so, I was frequently glancing up at the top of the wall and looking around to see if there were any cracks or dodgy looking things.

I was in my bra and pants between each outfit. It doesn't matter that I wasn't naked, or that I am not exactly svelte. I have a 100% right not to be interrupted or embarrassed or covertly spied on by a wrongdoer.

The stupid will always support those in power.

Keep 2 changing areas - women only, and unisex. That way women who want their privacy can keep it, and everyone else can go in the mixed. And if any men are uncomfortable then let them complain and campaign for their own spaces.

gender spaces

Mixed gender spaces ^^

if you could choose the 'norm' for changing rooms / bathrooms what would you choose?

That way women who want their privacy can keep it, and everyone else can go in the mixed

That won't work because men who "identify" as women will demand to use women's changing rooms.

if you could choose the 'norm' for changing rooms / bathrooms what would you choose?

Women should just keep asking - why are some people not respecting someone's rights to privacy? Why are they trampling over people's rights to consent ? Why are they insisting that, even when women explain that they are shy, of a religious faith, don't want to change/shower/toilet etc in the company of men, that they must comply. That their rights don't matter. These are not good values. It is unacceptable.

Predators, perverts and bullies don't respect other people's rights. Decent people respect the rights of women, children and men to say No, we won't change/shower/use the toilet/share a hospital ward etc with the opposite sex

It's a big experiment being carried out on the public, one of women's safeguards that we take for granted is being taken away.