To agree with Piers Morgan..

[Science9]

I find Piers Morgan insufferable at the best of times, but I was watching him debate with a guest re Primarks new gender neutral changing rooms and I found myself agreeing with him completely. I know it's not unreasonable to agree with someone but I wanted to see if i was inthe minority by being really annoyed and worried about this and how things are going in regards to single sex spaces? I am a regular primark shopper and I usually take a big bag of stuff in to try on and their changing rooms have the worst flimsy curtains as it is- I already get majorly self conscious when the curtain doesn't fully shut (it never does) but the thought of men being in the opposite cubicle rather than another woman is mortifying for me and I am just going to have to shop elsewhere. I just worry this is going to be the start of losing single sex toilets and changing areas altogether which would be hell for me. Before anyone says it, I have no problem with trans people!

Is there any evidence of increased sexual assaults in shops changing rooms?
That article refers swimming pools and leisure centres.

I think we are at danger of going too far on the safety issue at a risk of making women's reasonable safety concerns seem exaggerated.

And even if some women lack the imagination or experience to forsee potential problems, the very fact other women are saying, "no" should be enough.

Or do women lose the right to consent if, when they say no, men can go ahead and do it anyway if they don't like the sound of no?

Because, if that's the case, it rather nullifies consent in the first place.

There are vast numbers of men and women who do not consent to this.

YABU to agree with Piers Morgan. I think his intention is to say deliberately provocative things to get press.

I share reservations about toilets, but this is using a slippery slope argument. The question is on changing rooms.

I'd say it depends how primark implement this. If they are responsible and staff changing spaces consistently, and have cubicles with full sight cover (and no space at the sides for phones) I think it's reasonable. If they keep flimsy curtains and staff inconsistently then it is clearly unsafe, but I'd say the same is true of single sex changing areas in this circumstance. Relying on cultural acceptability from a predator isn't a big risk mitigator.

stacyontheright.com/catalogue-of-sexual-crimes-committed-at-target-stores/

A catalogue is not evidence of increased sexual offenses.

womanmeanssomething.com/targetstudy/

Is there any evidence of increased sexual assaults in shops changing rooms?
That article refers swimming pools and leisure centres.

I don't know.

But does it really matter?

The data suggests that unisex changing rooms put women at risk. How many women being assaulted/filmed in shop changing rooms would it take for you to agree it is an issue?

10? 100? You? Your daughter?

I think a lot of what Piers Morgan says people agree with but they are frightened to say what they are really thinking in case they are torn down by the PC brigade.

When you have to resort to that massive cliché, you've lost the argument.

If the only issue with unisex changing rooms is flimsy curtains in Primark, that's a problem that's incredibly easily remedied.

Is there any evidence of increased sexual assaults in shops changing rooms?

Don’t know if any data has been collected in the U.K. for shops - but there’s evidence from the US and Australia, even Dubai.

What is the reason for making women change with men?

How does it benefit women?

Is there a benefit to women?

If not, then there is no reason to do it.

It is fact that there are men who will:

• Buy and install spy cams in any women's (now shared) facility they can then masturbate to, share the footage etc.
• Sit in toilets and masturbate to the sound of women unwrapping and changing sanitary products
• Use female toilet facilities and ejaculate on the seat or leave a small deposit on the toilet paper, again to get off to the thought (or sound) of a woman then using that cubicle.
• and more grossness.

That is before you get into the physical assaulting, raping and in-person voyeurism , which itself is allied to the general psychological issues of having unwanted and unknown strangers and risks in what should be a female-only private space.

So who on earth thinks its a good idea to make that even easier, by officially marking female facilities as shared to all-comers?

Right now if our spidey senses flare up, we can raise the alarm or alert other women of some dodgy geezer and find an alternative. It's something we grow up learning to do, to watch out for each other.

Change that and you expose all women to risk, but why would you even consider that?

A lot of people agree with Piers Morgan on a lot of things. But if you’re agreeing with him you might want to question yourself a little more.

This evasive Twitter-shite-speak is very annoying.

I don't know.

But does it really matter?

The data suggests that unisex changing rooms put women at risk.

Well... does it or doesn't it? It matters if we want to make a decision based on rationality rather than fear.

www.christianpost.com/news/most-voyeurism-sexual-assaults-against-women-occur-in-mixed-sex-changing-rooms-statistics-show.html

It is fact that there are men who will:

And do all sorts of things in men's bathrooms in relation to men and boys.
As well as installing whatever in single sex female toilets if they want.

We are not even discussing shared toilets on the thread, but store changing rooms.

Well... does it or doesn't it? It matters if we want to make a decision based on rationality rather than fear.

But are we making the decision based on fear?

Some women might be fearful of it because they have been raped/sexually assaulted.

Some women might want to get changed without the risk of being seen by a strange man.

It doesn't really matter, does it? We shouldn't have to fight to justify and keep the rights we have already been afforded in law. Such as the right to sex segregation for privacy, dignity and safety. Just because a small number of men don't think it's fair!

We live in a bizarre world where we’re entirely responsible for taking ‘precautions’ to prevent sexual assault, but businesses and councils are making that more difficult.

I’ve never been to Primark 🤷‍♀️ I thought it was just women’s wear.

I don’t think this would bother me, as long as it wasn’t a communal space.

YABU. So many shops only have unisex changing rooms. And most of us don't think twice about using them.

The Target study isn't good enough.
We need far more women to be spied on or assaulted in unisex changing rooms before we can make a decision.

Women fought hard for single-sex spaces for good reasons. I can't understand women who don't understand that.

Thinking of my local shops, I've used unisex changing rooms in Gap, TK Maxx, Tesco and Sainsburys without thinking about it. Because they only have one.

A lot of people agree with Piers Morgan on a lot of things. But if you’re agreeing with him you might want to question yourself a little more.

That comment is a contemptible mix of stupidity and tribalism.

The Target study isn't good enough.

It's not a study. It's a list.

Look, are we going to start campaigning for separate public transport or to have sex segregation of doctors or health technicians? Sex separated shops?
There have to be limits.

Changing rooms in most shops, IMO, aren't an issue.

well... does it or doesn't it? It matters if we want to make a decision based on rationality rather than fear.

It’s rational to argue that given there has been an increase in sexual assaults in unisex changing rooms in pools and sports’ centres in the U.K., and shops abroad, that shops in the U.K. are likely to be affected, no?

The majority of sexual assaults in U.K. hospitals are carried out on mixed wards. link

Are you irrationally arguing that U.K. shops are likely to be immune from this trend simply because thus far we don’t have any data on the issue?

Perhaps make changing rooms less private, in fact. Why have long dark corridors of changing rooms?
Single cubicles in full view of the public can remove the intimacy or secrecy factor.

My local Decathlon (a sports shop) has single or double changing rooms scattered around the shop in full view of anyone walking by or staff. Can't think of any issues in those.