To let you know thought crime is now a thing

[CalliopeMeansMusic]

Apologies for the odious DM link, but this has really chilled me.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6827459/Catholic-journalist-questioned-caution-police-misgendering-someones-daughter.html

A woman is being investigated by police and faces a two year jail sentence for allegedly misgendering Jackie Green during a tweet. What has the world become when we cannot state simple, biological facts without fear of prosecution? And why do the beliefs of the mother and daughter (that they are now living as a member of the opposite sex) trump the beliefs of Caroline Farrow? I am all for protecting vulnerable people from hate crimes, but this is not a hate crime, and makes a mockery of people facing real discrimination and fear.

On the plus side, I may move to Surrey; clearly its ridiculously safe if the police have all that time to investigate this!

Bullshit! She's accused Susie of child abuse. That is hateful.

In this country, removed a child’s genitals is illegal and considered by most, to be child abuse.

Are you saying you think it should be legal in this country to remove a child’s genitals?

You can't just post abuse and name call though on social media or send them harassing tweets/messages or dedicate abusive tweet after tweet about people though, which does happen.
Two different things! How are people not getting this?

None of the tweets were sent to Susie Green, as far as I am aware.

The ‘ name-calling’ I assume you’re referring to is the , ‘ child abuse’ part? I think it’s an accurate description of something with is illegal to do to children in this country.

Don't commit a crime, avoid a criminal record maybe?

Misgendering is not a crime.

or dedicate abusive tweet after tweet

That didn’t happen. Stop making stuff up.

Eh? I wasn't referring to one individual case if you read it again! I said in general.
It does happen, I'm not making it up.
A trip to Twitter, just go take a look if you don't believe me.
Hate crime happens on there, you surely don't believe it doesn't happen.

misgendering is not a crime
Well, that'd depend. Repeatedly and consistently doing it when you know it's she, tips over into harassment/hate crime.
Once as a mistake, fair enough.
Again, it's intent.

but how does that square with freedom of expression, where you can't force another person to express a belief that they do not hold? I don't believe that 'Jill' is a woman. You can't force me to say Jill is, and you can't force me to use incorrect pronouns for Jill's sex.

It's clear as crystal that no-one has thought this stuff through.

Misgendering is not a crime.

Not yet. But TRAs and their allies are working hard to make it a crime.

but how does that square with freedom of expression, where you can't force another person to express a belief that they do not hold?

We have not had absolute freedom of expression in this country ever. It's always been limited, and for decades that's been limited by hate speech laws. It applies to racists, holocaust deniers, homophobes who won't accept that same sex couples are actually married, Islamophobes who believe all kinds of things about Muslims and now people who do not accept that trans people are an actual thing.

You can argue that gender critical types shouldn't be bundled in with the first lot if you like, but you can't argue that this is new. It isn't. British law has said that some views can't be expressed for a public audience for years and years.

Hate crime happens on there

Twitter is a cesspit, yes. I was referring to this case because that is what the thread is about. I consider misogyny a hate crime, but on twitter and in law, it is ignored.

now people who do not accept that trans people are an actual thing.

That’s not what’s happening. Nobody denies transgender people exist. Transwomen are transwomen. The disagreement is over the belief by a minority that humans can change sex or be born in ‘the wrong body’ and that hate crime laws would be used to force others into changing language to align with that personal belief.

@CuriousaboutSamphire - that's a totally different argument although I think it's a tad disingenuous on your part to ask 'what's controversial about claiming that humans can't change sex' - if that wasn't controversial, the Feminist Chat section of MN would be a far quieter place, wouldn't it?

You clearly think it should not be controversial. However right now, it clearly is as this entire thread and most of MN and an awful lot of the media show.

who believe all kinds of things about Muslims

Interesting you bring Muslim people into this. Their beliefs mean they do not want to be exposed to the bodies of the opposite sex. Are you of the opinion they too should be forced to?

British law has said that some views can't be expressed for a public audience for years and years.

That has not included speaking about irrefutable biological sex. That’s new.

Exactly, forestafantastica

fantastica I'm thinking of the recent Christian bakery case, where it was ruled that they didn't not have to ice words that they didn't agree with ('support gay marriage' i think was the slogan requested).

New as in transpeople are accepted more and shouldn't be discriminated against?
Yes, if so, the way it should be in my opinion

refusing to validate someone's chosen identity that flies in the face of objective reality doesn't equal discrimination.

Telling children monstrous lies that they can change sex or that their personality needs to be pathologised should never become acceptable.

New as in transpeople are accepted more and shouldn't be discriminated against?

That’s not the issue the thread is about is it. It’s about using hate speech laws to force people into accepting an ideology that flies in the face of basic biology. Misgendering isn’t discrimination.
Everybody is protected from harassment and violence. That includes trans people. This thread and all the complaints Susie Green has made, have nothing whatsoever to do with discrimination. Nobody is being denied jobs or housing or anything you could remotely describe as discrimination. Susie Green has complained about other people’s tweets, which either correctly identify somebody by their biological sex, or as in the case with Farrow, state accurate facts about what SG did to her child, facts she herself has stated more than once publicly.

I feel you’re deliberately derailing.

refusing to validate someone's chosen identity that flies in the face of objective reality doesn't equal discrimination.

This ^ Women know what discrimination looks like, that isn’t it.

That's not the issue the thread is about is it*

You're the one who brought it up, not me

So what did you mean then by new? That's why I used a question mark as I was asking you.
That's how I read it, if you meant new as in a new inclusion in hate crime, yes it is as is getting cracked down on more so you'll be seeing more of it

No I didn’t? I’m focusing on the issue. Which is that yet again, someone has been contacted by police for not adhering to trans ideology. You’re derailing by raising ‘discrimination’. Not sure how you think I’m the one raising that separate and not relevant issue. It is not discrimination to correctly identify the sex of a person, as Farrow and others contacted by police have done.

('support gay marriage' i think was the slogan requested).

You are correct.

Misgendering isn’t discrimination.

This cannot be repeated enough.