To ask, if you believe in a 'God'/Higher Being, how do you rationalise the death of an innocent child? **Contains graphic content - Thread titled edited by MNHQ**

[DM1209]

Good morning MN. I have been raised within a faith, Sikhism, and for the most part it brings me comfort and inner peace. My faith believes in equality for all mankind, standing up for those that cannot stand up for themselves and in doing good for the world which is why, in our places of worship we offer free hot meals all day to ANYONE that walks through our doors, regardless of their faith, gender, or colour.

Over time though I am finding myself asking 'that' question. If there is a higher power, why does 'it' not stop some senseless acts of evil from happening? I know it's not as clear cut as that and I know life is about balance, you have good and bad. But how do you rationalise this in your head if you follow a faith? And if you don't follow a faith, is it easier to understand the cruelty of mankind?

I know acts and deeds committed are the result of a person and their actions, they are responsible, I get that too....but why? Where is the intervention? Where is that 'angel' or that divine power that steps in?

I've just read about a 22 month old little girl who in her short life was neglected and abused and as a result of which, she died, no was murdered with a massive overdose of codeine.

She was also found with multiple head fractures, rib fractures, broken bones and a split liver. These injuries were consistent with those of a car crash victim. This little baby lay suffering and dying in her bed, over the course of about 4 days, while her 'mother' and her boyfriend played games and spent time on Facebook. I cannot imagine her pain and distress, the confusion in her mind and the acceptance that this was her life. Why? How is this ok if you are 'God'?

When her mother finally called for help, she was already dead and rigor mortis had set in which takes several hours. She was just left. No love, no warmth and no comfort. Then people say 'she's in a better place now.' No she isn't, she's dead and has only know suffering while alive.

Why? Just, why?

I'm not expecting answers as just, I simply cannot understand. Call it a crisis of sorts I suppose.

Chill pizza, not being funny but genuinely curious. What rules of Satan are better than Christian rules. Again, not having a go, but I have always thought the Ten Commandments to be a pretty good yardstick for living a moral life, regardless of belief in the Bible.

I haven't rtft, sorry. My feeling is if you believe in a force of good, you must also believe in a force of evil.

I recently lost my baby at 20 weeks. It's the only way I can rationalise it. The force of good is helping me recover.

@Lifecraft
Yet when a baby is cured of cancer, it's not because the medical team did the right thing. It's because of god. He answered the prayers, and performed a miracle.

Really?! Can't we thank both? It's not exclusively one or the other. I would thank the surgeon for his/her hard work, long hours of study and careful hand. I would thank previous surgeons who my surgeon is standing on the shoulders of.

I would thank God for allowing the surgeon to fulfil his/her dreams, giving the opportunity for him/her to study and for putting the surgeon into my path. I would thank God for the evolution of human brains to be able to gain knowledge regarding medical intervention.

but I have always thought the Ten Commandments to be a pretty good yardstick for living a moral life,

@Tinkerbell456 Really? No mention of rape or child abuse or slavery or discrimination or lgbt rights? The first four commandments are just about protecting gods ego.

I would thank God for the evolution of human brains to be able to gain knowledge regarding medical intervention.

Knowledge they only ever gain through research. God couldn't even be bothered to tell humans to wash their fucking hands now and again.

Humans are nasty and will wipe themselves out. Cheerful bugger aren't i?!

The fourth commandment I would say is extremely important. Thou shall not misuse the name of the Lord. This has happened many times in history, where atrocities have been commited in the name of God. Time and time again the bible is used to justify someones own agenda for evil as much as for good.

Thou shall not Covet, covers a multitude of sins in itself. Why does a rapist rape? Because one would assume, he or she desires what they cannot have. Many sins are commited because of this last commandment.

Ultimately it all boils down to choice once more. When it comes to the written word, it is easily manipulated to fit either sides of the pond. It is a choice to search for God, to come to God and see the good interpretations in his words, as much as its a choice to turn from God and find the bad interpretations in his word. Such is our human nature.

&@Lifecraft Yet when a baby is cured of cancer, it's not because the medical team did the right thing. It's because of god. He answered the prayers, and performed a miracle.

@WhatisFreddoingnow Really?! Can't we thank both? It's not exclusively one or the other.

But when a baby is abused and murdered, you don't blame both. Then it's all humans and their pesky free will, and god had nothing to do with it.

@Lifecraft Yet when a baby is cured of cancer, it's not because the medical team did the right thing. It's because of god. He answered the prayers, and performed a miracle.

@WhatisFreddoingnow Really?! Can't we thank both? It's not exclusively one or the other.

But when a baby is abused and murdered, you don't blame both. Then it's all humans and their pesky free will, and god had nothing to do with it.

Yes, this. It’s exactly the point I made earlier. God only takes credit for the good stuff, the bad stuff? Holds hands up, nothing to do with me, that’s free will. How convenient. That’s my problem with it.

@headinhands. Believe I said pretty good not perfect! I take your point. A lot of the Bible, esp. Old Testament, is vile.

Tinkerbell
Satanism has very strict rules outlawing cruelty to animals and children, bothering other people, and respect, just as examples.
Also, Satan (pbuh) has never flooded the planet drowning millions of puppies etc.

This is where I feel Christians experience doubt throughout their journey of faith. My own faith is that I cannot assume to understand why God intervenes or doesn't intervene. I can only trust that He is all knowing and has a plan. To have faith in God is to accept that even when He appears to be indifferent to the suffering of his children, that He is working in ways we have yet to understand. After all, God sent his own Son, to die a most awful, painful death, so that we could be forgiven our sins and enter heaven to be with God.

The alternative is to lose faith in God and instead believe that our existence is meaningless, our suffering is meaningless and our lives are all for nothing. That, i just cannot believe. I feel this way of thinking can be what leads many people down the road of suicide, or to commit evil acts because if it is all pointless, then why not?

Another part of Corrie Ten Booms book about her work in the underground and subsequent imprisonment for harbouring the jewish, sticks in my mind. When herself and her sister arrive at their final concentration camp barracks, Corrie quickly discovers the barracks are infested with fleas. During prayer that night, her sister tells her to be thankful, thankful that they have been kept together, thankful they managed to keep their bible and other supplies...and thankful for the fleas. Corrie could not understand how or why anyone could be thankful for fleas but did as her sister asked.

Later on in the book, it is discovered that the guards and other officials of the camp rarely entered the barracks the girls lived in, allowing the girls and their fellow prisoners to have a better quality of life than the other barracks. All because of those fleas. The officials did not want to get bitten so stayed away.

This, to me, is an example of trusting God, even when there can appear to be no possible justification to continue to do so.

I feel this way of thinking can be what leads many people down the road of suicide, or to commit evil acts because if it is all pointless, then why not?

But just as many Christians commit suicide as any other group.

Not believing in god doesn't make my life less meaningful. If anything you could argue it renders this one life more meaningful.

Bartholins.Christianity also frowns on cruelty to children and animals.Also, respect. Satan needs to offer something other deities don’t! Just mucking about by the way. I appreciate your answer. Live and learn. I know nothing about spirituality beyond my childhood Catholicism.

And therein is where the issue of religion versus non religion lies, headinhands. Its all down to personal interpretation isnt it? Because regardless of all the faith in the world and all the science in the world, not a single one of us really knows the truth. Stalemate. We can only choose how to live our lives in ways we can reconcile with our own higher selves. For me that is one of faith, for you, it is one of a good life without faith. For me, i find my meaning in trying to act in Gods image and do His work, for you, you find meaning in living a good life within your morals and own beliefs.

It seems to me that christians and atheists alike can get defensive about their faith or non faith. To me, defensiveness is bred from fear. If your faith in god, or your faith in atheism is strong enough, then there is nothing to fear and so nothing to feel defensive over. There is no need to try to prove either side to be the right or the wrong side. Perhaps, this is the real issue with religion and non religion. The acting on either side, of superiority.

Lee strobel, in his book, the Case for Faith, talks about his own atheism for so many years. He evalutes his disdain for those with faith and comes to the conclusion that his conception of those with faith, was that they were of lesser intellect. They were weaker. Despite all his investigations into faith, all his interviews and to his mind, the mounting evidence of God and His Work, it was his own ego, his own pride thay held him back from really developing faith. Surely, he was too smart to have faith!

That struck a nerve with me. Having been an atheist for many years, I could agree that my need to put down faith came from my belief that these people with faith were somehow the vulnerables of society and needed saved from the brainwashing of religion. So to have faith in God myself, that was unconcievable to me. I would not be seen as less intelligent, weak, vulnerable and easily manipulated!

It is a difficult world to live in, when one has faith. There is so much evil taking place in the world, it must seem like madness to non believers for people to still have faith. Yet as always, faith often comes when it seems impossible to have any.

I've heard it explained as : It's because we live in a fallen world and we are fallen people. Christians know that people and the world are hopelessly lost without God. Due to sin, the world is so hopelessly screwed up that nothing at all should, could, or would ever go right unless God intervened.

Unfortunately, death is a feature of our world. We all die at some point. I don't think unnecessary death is part of a great plan, rather God can bring goodness out of bad situations. It's like reading a tiny part of a story without having any understanding of the wider picture.

I was raised in a catholic house, but I seriously lost all faith when I was about 10 and realised I was being fed a fiction by my family and the church. I would get in trouble for questioning the bible - ie creationism etc and never actually given any answers other than “If it’s in the Bible then it’s true.” As a teenager I decided I wasn’t going to have my life dictated by a religion based entirely on guilt tripping yourself over the simplest of life’s pleasures.
I spent some time in the military, and have seen some truly hideous things that I wouldn’t wish anyone to see. I’ve seen children become the victims of war more times than I care to remember. I’ve sat and removed shrapnel from the leg of a screaming Afghan toddler, because she happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time when a rocket-propelled grenade slammed through the wall of her family’s house. I’ve never found a way to rationalise those things in my head, because there simply isn’t an answer for it.
I like to tell myself that when it comes to “good and evil” one can’t exist without the other. Like how they say you can’t experience love without knowing what pain feels like too? But I’m not sure if I truly believe that or not. I think I lean more towards the cynical thinking of: sometimes shit things happen to people who have done nothing to deserve it, and there’s no reason for it.
I don’t believe that a higher power controls anything that happens to us. I think life is just a game of luck. There’s no way to rationalise the death of the child you talk about - she just happened to be born to some utterly foul people and I don’t believe that was predestined for her. Poor little thing

I was raised in a catholic house, but I seriously lost all faith when I was about 10 and realised I was being fed a fiction by my family and the church. I would get in trouble for questioning the bible - ie creationism etc and never actually given any answers other than “If it’s in the Bible then it’s true.” hmm As a teenager I decided I wasn’t going to have my life dictated by a religion based entirely on guilt tripping yourself over the simplest of life’s pleasures.

Quite surprised by this as creationism isn't a part of Catholic doctrine. In fact, a Catholic priest first wrote about the Big Bang. We're free to believe in evolution etc. Catholic also aren't Sola Scriptura so we don't take the Bible as literal fact. Also, we're not puritans and allowed to delight in pleasures e.g drinking, food as long as it isn't excessive and damaging to our relationships with each other and God.

I'm not saying you're lying at a but I do think a lot of misconceptions about Christianity come from a legacy of poor catechism.

Whatis The particular incident I recall was when I mentioned about the snake in the garden of Eden and said something along this lines of “but animals can’t talk” - and was essentially told that if the bible says it, then shut up and don’t question it again. Probably because my parents just didn’t know how to answer the question!
I don’t think they took the Bible literally in the sense that every single word of it is 100% true, but it was easier for them to tell me that than to actually answer my questions properly.
The priest we had when I was a kid was terrifying. I wouldn’t have dared ask him any of those questions! He was a very “fire and brimstone” breed of priest and he really scared me.

Fascinating thread. I was brought up as Catholic and have had a fairly strong faith, up until the point where the shit started to happen. Many awful things keep happening to me and my family. My ds now has severe complex ptsd. My faith is at rock bottom.

I do think we as humans have to take more responsibility. That awful story about the baby highlights many issues about safeguarding children. I don't expect God to swoop in and save them but I have major problems with that degree of suffering in a young child. It's horrific.

I think in my hard I am working so hard to improve my family's situation. So hard despite being pretty burnt out. Getting help has been a nightmare. I am so thankful for a few amazing friends and my outstanding GP.

Some sort of sign, or a bit of positive progress God???

I can't take a man who writes for stream.org seriously.