To ask, if you believe in a 'God'/Higher Being, how do you rationalise the death of an innocent child? **Contains graphic content - Thread titled edited by MNHQ**

[DM1209]

Good morning MN. I have been raised within a faith, Sikhism, and for the most part it brings me comfort and inner peace. My faith believes in equality for all mankind, standing up for those that cannot stand up for themselves and in doing good for the world which is why, in our places of worship we offer free hot meals all day to ANYONE that walks through our doors, regardless of their faith, gender, or colour.

Over time though I am finding myself asking 'that' question. If there is a higher power, why does 'it' not stop some senseless acts of evil from happening? I know it's not as clear cut as that and I know life is about balance, you have good and bad. But how do you rationalise this in your head if you follow a faith? And if you don't follow a faith, is it easier to understand the cruelty of mankind?

I know acts and deeds committed are the result of a person and their actions, they are responsible, I get that too....but why? Where is the intervention? Where is that 'angel' or that divine power that steps in?

I've just read about a 22 month old little girl who in her short life was neglected and abused and as a result of which, she died, no was murdered with a massive overdose of codeine.

She was also found with multiple head fractures, rib fractures, broken bones and a split liver. These injuries were consistent with those of a car crash victim. This little baby lay suffering and dying in her bed, over the course of about 4 days, while her 'mother' and her boyfriend played games and spent time on Facebook. I cannot imagine her pain and distress, the confusion in her mind and the acceptance that this was her life. Why? How is this ok if you are 'God'?

When her mother finally called for help, she was already dead and rigor mortis had set in which takes several hours. She was just left. No love, no warmth and no comfort. Then people say 'she's in a better place now.' No she isn't, she's dead and has only know suffering while alive.

Why? Just, why?

I'm not expecting answers as just, I simply cannot understand. Call it a crisis of sorts I suppose.

I can't. I just have to accept that some questions don't have answers. There is nothing that can test a person's faith more than the death of a child. But if it's a question of faith, the death of a child from an unpreventable, incurable illness is sometimes the hardest thing of all to reconcile with a loving, benevolent God. I asked this question of our local priest when a friend's 4-month-old died, and even he couldn't answer. The child would be almost 5 now, and his mother is still a broken shadow of her former self.

As for senseless acts of evil - a category into which the gross neglect of a child would fit - I don't believe God has any responsibility for this at all. Humanity does.

Whatever situation has prompted you to ask this question OP, I wish you peace and healing. I don't know very much about Sikhism, but I have to say your faith sounds beautiful. We need more of that kind of sense of loving community in the UK.

PurpleThistles thank you so much. Even though I did not use AA to quit, turning my will and my struggles over to a higher power helped immensely.

I don't know how to explain, at the point I stopped, my husband would pour out all my alcohol and then I'd just wait for him to go to bed and drive to the store drunk in my pajamas to buy more.

I had many accidents and it was a matter of time before I killed someone else and/or myself.

I just know that after completely humbling myself and admitting I had absolutely no control and praying for help I did not want to drink at all. I've been to numerous pubs, parties and even cruises and don't even think twice about drinking. I don't know why, it just is what it is and I am so grateful.

I pray for you and your husband that he finds peace and sobriety. I think being married to an alcoholic is just as hard if not worse than being one! Best wishes to you both!

Op, what you described about the child is just awful. There's no getting away from that!

How can we ever know good if we don't know the bad? The very good compared to the very bad. The ecstasy compared to the misery? How? If we don't have one we can't know the other. Some may say, that I'd rather go with out the two extremes. Maybe?

I believe we come into different forms, over and over again. Endless times. If this is the case, would we choose the perfect life every time or would we mix it up? Experience everything there was to experience, if it was a type of game? A game of extremes nevertheless.

Science and a belief in God can and does exist side by side.

Humans are very good at compartmentalising facts and opinions, I give you Brexit as an example

I struggle with this too OP. Following this mostly fascinating discussion with interest.
I was raised loosely as Hindu, although not particularly devout. I became more religious as I grew older, finding more comfort in God. I lost a child a few years ago, and turned to religion for comfort - although I can understand how such an event can also cause people to eschew religion. It gives me some peace and lets me go on day to day believing that my child is in a better place. I try not to examine it too much because the thought that he is just gone and his ashes are floating around like dust is rather too much to bear.
I'm also a scientist, and hold these beliefs true alongside my scientific training. (Although one data point does not constitute anything and I'm not claiming to speak for all/any other scientists).
It's not that I think humans and nature aren't capable of creating all that is wondrous around us. But I suppose believing there is something more than just this life is comforting. Something greater that we belong to. Something that lends more meaning to life than just this - as wondrous as it is.

PurpleThistles a lot of people tried to say Einstein was an atheist which he stated was not true. Einstein did not believe in the "grandfatherly" type of God that many humans believe in but he did believe there was a higher intelligence in the universe and that the presence of one thing, science, does not disprove the presence of a creator. He was willing to believe that we as human beings could not possibly have all of the answers or know what happens after we die which I agree with.

The problem of evil is probably the most convincing argument against God. I think all people of all faith struggle with it from time-to-time.

From a Catholic perspective, I would argue against evil events being "all part of God's plan". God has a permissive will and a direct will. Evil happens because we live in a fallen world with fallen people. I do believe that God tries to bring out the good in all bad situations. There is also the question of free will. We have free will to do good or bad. Many problems would be solved if everyone in the world used their free will to do good. God has decided (in His ultimate wisdom) that our free will trumps everything else and we have to trust in that. Death is also not the end. I truly believe our life on earth is a passing moment so death just isn't the worst thing that could happen.
St Thomas Aquinas puts it far more eloquently so google him and 'The problem of evil' if interested.

As a cavaet to this, I wouldn't get into a discussion about this with someone who is raw from a painful moment. Jesus sobbed at the death of Lazarus. Grief is very acute and we must comfort people in those moments. Not explain it away.

'Rationalise' is definitely the word, OP.

If something is a 'happy lie' that makes them feel better about themselves or their lives, humans are capable of rationalising almost anything.

When it comes to any religious claims I just ask myself a simple question: what's more likely, that this is true, or that some human somewhere just made it up?

@sweetrosie92 that's interesting to read! I read some scientists refer to the idea of there being something more as 'Intelligent Designer' which I quite liked. Thank you for your prayers, they are very much appreciated.

because we have free will that can affect others around us. God is not supposed to baby us and helicopter parent. rather its a case do it yourself while we are here.

'Intelligent Designer'

The eye is often used to demonstrate this 'how could something as complex as an eye not be intelligently designed' is how it usually goes, but evolution has it covered the first rudementary 'eyes' could only distinguish between light and dark, then as the eye evolved it was able to discern objects in the light and dark, then further evolution step by step over billions of years you have the eye, I think were most people struggle is the length of time it takes for evolution to be noticable within a species

To counteract the intelligence design the appendix is often used as an example

I don't believe that there is anything inherently good or evil in the universe. There is simply Nature creating and destroying and creating. I don't follow a specific religion but I am influenced by paganism and pantheism (the belief that nature and divinity are the same). Nature's patterns have an inherent raw beauty but it's not pretty or nice.

The death of a child is, on a cold objective view, one of Nature's destructive acts, among many others. Of course, humans don't (and shouldn't) have this omniscient objectivity. For us, the death of a child is a horrific tragedy that tears apart the hearts of the living.

Human societies have, quite rightly and necessarily, defined certain human actions as good or evil. Society would not function without this consensus. We need these rules and we need to abide by them - humans can perform evil acts if not. But I don't believe that good and evil have objective reality on the universal level.

For me, 'God' isn't good. God is the reality of what is.

Thank you PurpleThistles I think Einstein expressed his beliefs much more articulately than I can, one thing he said,
" I prefer an attitude of humility corresponding to the weakness of our intellectual understanding of nature and of our own being."

And I agree wholeheartedly, I am not convinced that the human mind is able to fully understand God.

But I also believe a person can learn a lot from anyone regardless of what they believe.

I think many people are essentially good and trying to make their way through this life as best they can.

I've always wondered the same about those who say they 'believe in people'. How? We're all capable of so much evil given the right circumstances.

Because humans have free will to choose to do good or do bad. People are not puppets of a god or anybody else. People have to take responsibility for their own behaviour.

I’m with Tim Minchin on this, personally.

m.youtube.com/watch?v=IZeWPScnolo
(Avoid if easily offended by religious criticism)

If there is a god and he’s fixing some random person’s cataracts in a country with accessible healthcare, while letting babies contract malaria in developing countries, he is not someone I have any interest in worshipping.

I used to ask myself this same question. I then watched a programme called touched by an angel, it is based around Christianity but I found r helped me to make sense of that question.

I'm not trying to sell anything to you, Warped.

Each to their own.

YES @sinkgirl my thoughts exactly!

www.jw.org/en/publications/magazines/wp20140501/who-rules-the-world/

I'm a Christian, not actually a JWitness, but they brilliantly site all their biblical sources for bible teaching. As opposed to alot if the fuzzy made up interpretations of Christianity I see floating around.
I'd say that link and the scriptures (if you click they're quick pop ups to read) are a good place to get a quick understanding of a Christian's view regarding higher power and suffering/disease/natural disasters.

Tbh the very first response on this thread nailed it imo.

Tim Minchin is talking about a god humans have created, not what god actually is. The mans ideas are stunted. Clever he is not, or funny imo.

Oh really Vitalogy? I think he’s talking about everyone who has the audacity to believe that they worship the one actual god out of “history’s endless parade of gods”, and that he cares about their trivial shit but is fine with the deaths of innocent babies.

“What are the odds
That in history’s endless parade of gods
That the god you just happen to be taught to believe in
Is the actual god, and he digs on healing?
But not the AIDS-riddled African nations
Nor the victims of the plague, nor the flood-addled Asians,
But healthy, privately-insured Australians
With common and curable lens degeneration”

I think he has a bloody good point, and I would respectfully disagree - he is both clever and funny, and a musical genius to boot. But please, do share your intelligent, witty orchestral arrangements referencing the reality of god if you can do so much better.

The fact that you think there’s a distinction between the god humans have created and an actual god is a new one on me - could you elaborate? I’m with you on the former.

I don't believe that there is anything inherently good or evil in the universe.

People like to think of the universe in terms of good or evil because they can't cope with the truth...that it's completely indifferent.

Not all who are christians were taught to believe in God. Many come to faith much later in life.

Not all christians come to faith by just choosing to believe either. They question, they research, they doubt. Doubt is a part of faith.

If anyone is genuinely interested in evidence and research into why Christians believe in God, from the points of view of expert archaeologists, psychologists, scientists, theologists and so forth, I would highly recommend reading any of Lee Strobels books. He interviews many leading experts in their fields on issues such as these and was an atheist for many years.

In response to the eye counterargument, for that to work for me, i would have to believe that the first eye ever in existence was, in fact, rudimentary, and not a miracle in its own right. When mathematicians and scientist try to calculate the odds of life developing on earth, we are talking 1 in a quintillion, an odd so vast it is almost incomprehensible to the human brain. For a christian, the odds make it far more likely we were created by God. For an atheist, so set against the idea of God or anything else, we just happened to get that lucky, that is the most likely explanation.