To ask, if you believe in a 'God'/Higher Being, how do you rationalise the death of an innocent child? **Contains graphic content - Thread titled edited by MNHQ**

[DM1209]

Good morning MN. I have been raised within a faith, Sikhism, and for the most part it brings me comfort and inner peace. My faith believes in equality for all mankind, standing up for those that cannot stand up for themselves and in doing good for the world which is why, in our places of worship we offer free hot meals all day to ANYONE that walks through our doors, regardless of their faith, gender, or colour.

Over time though I am finding myself asking 'that' question. If there is a higher power, why does 'it' not stop some senseless acts of evil from happening? I know it's not as clear cut as that and I know life is about balance, you have good and bad. But how do you rationalise this in your head if you follow a faith? And if you don't follow a faith, is it easier to understand the cruelty of mankind?

I know acts and deeds committed are the result of a person and their actions, they are responsible, I get that too....but why? Where is the intervention? Where is that 'angel' or that divine power that steps in?

I've just read about a 22 month old little girl who in her short life was neglected and abused and as a result of which, she died, no was murdered with a massive overdose of codeine.

She was also found with multiple head fractures, rib fractures, broken bones and a split liver. These injuries were consistent with those of a car crash victim. This little baby lay suffering and dying in her bed, over the course of about 4 days, while her 'mother' and her boyfriend played games and spent time on Facebook. I cannot imagine her pain and distress, the confusion in her mind and the acceptance that this was her life. Why? How is this ok if you are 'God'?

When her mother finally called for help, she was already dead and rigor mortis had set in which takes several hours. She was just left. No love, no warmth and no comfort. Then people say 'she's in a better place now.' No she isn't, she's dead and has only know suffering while alive.

Why? Just, why?

I'm not expecting answers as just, I simply cannot understand. Call it a crisis of sorts I suppose.

I know that when I was watching about the Tsunami (2005/6ish??) in my bedroom just crying out to God... 'why? this is just too awful'...then I looked at my bible, and flicked it open to the book of Habakkuk. In it is a book written thousands of years ago that is a cry of 'why God, its just too awful..' and the final few lines culminate with (and I paraphrase) 'Even though it continues to go horribly wrong - still I will praise you'.

For me, I consider that God was speaking to me directly. You are not the first to cry like this and ask this question, its been asked for thousand of years but the answer is not something you are going to learn just yet. At the moment just trust me'.

Actually, seeing what shit things happen to people, sometimes because of, not in spite of religion, I am more likely to believe in the tooth fairy or easter bunny than i do in there being a god.

I recently had my faith knocked slightly, and started to have a few niggles, which I imagine we all do from time to time.. I prayed that God would give me some kind of sign, however insignificant, to remind me that he is here, along side me as always. Throughout that day nothing happened that I recognised as being any sort of sign. It was much later that I realised that he had given me a sign (by sign I wasn’t expecting a fluttering feather landing at my feet or anything like that) and he had been listening, but in such a way I never recognised at the time. He had shown me in a way that was nothing short of miraculous but in such a simple way if that makes sense.

it's something we all struggle with - even if you accept that God doesn't create suffering, why did he create a world where people and animals could suffer? Why does he allow that?

I take the catholic line that we can't understand the mysteries of God, and that faith and hope make us more able to bear life's trials. You don't have to answer the problem of suffering, the question is whether you draw strength from believing in a creator and a set of moral codes that help you navigate your life.

I don't believe in god; if there is a god it would not be worthy of worship.

This is what I believe.

I don't believe in God but I really don't see that the suffering of people on earth is a reason to not believe.

If God was not the 'Creator' then I would see more of an argument for this. But in most (all?) religions, God created the Earth and the heavens. He/It has had control of everything from the absolute start, the beginning of everything, and CHOSE to create us with ability to suffer, even if for a tiny fraction of time.

The toddler analogy above is a good one but I believe flawed. We do cause our children to 'suffer' occasionally to keep them safe/teach them, but it is all in the interests of survival. We have no other choice as we cannot prevent their suffering caused by others/disease etc. I know if I could stop my daughter from experiencing pain or suffering, I would (and if I had the power, still find a way for her to experience the opposite positive feelings and emotions). God presumably CHOSE not to. Why would you worship a God like that?

Think I’ll pass on the ramblings of Sean Lennon.

That’s my issue with it. Say for example something wonderful happens like a child being cured of cancer. A ton of people pop up praising God, thanking God (how about praising the medical staff who did the work..?). Something awful happens, that’s free will.hmm God only gets involved in the good stuff.

God is like the Chancellor of the Exchequer. When things are going well, it's because of them and their skilful handling of the economy. When things are going badly, it's a global issue and nothing to do with them at all.

moral codes that help you navigate your life

Dont be gay
Children dont get into heaven unless baptised
Slavery is fine as long as you dont beat them too much
Women must always be subservient to men

I'm sure Ive missed a few and theyre not really the morals I want tbh

My beautiful, talented, funny nephew died a prolonged and painful death at just 9 years old. I don't care if he was evil in a past life, no one deserves the death he suffered. And since he wasn't baptised into ANY faith, then no god had the right to take the decision that it was time for him to "return to the fold" or whatever any religion calls it.

I'm an atheist who firmly believes there is no god, because no god of mine could ever allow a human to suffer in the way my nephew did. But have to admit I cannot say that god definitely does not exist. After all, just because I haven't seen him (her / it?) doesn't mean they are not real, I suppose. But if I am proved wrong when I die then I sure as heck have got some awkward questions lined up for this "Almighty".

I understand how you feel OP.

A close friend of mine lost a child in tragic circumstances, seeing the devastation first hand is something I will never forget.

It does make you question why such awful things happen to such lovely people.

I know it’s part of life and people have free will, but is so hard to accept when such sad events happen, it’s changes you as a person forever.

savanna22

You say you want to pass on the 'ramblings' of Sean Lennon. But then you write this......

I recently had my faith knocked slightly, and started to have a few niggles, which I imagine we all do from time to time.. I prayed that God would give me some kind of sign, however insignificant, to remind me that he is here, along side me as always. Throughout that day nothing happened that I recognised as being any sort of sign. It was much later that I realised that he had given me a sign (by sign I wasn’t expecting a fluttering feather landing at my feet or anything like that) and he had been listening, but in such a way I never recognised at the time. He had shown me in a way that was nothing short of miraculous but in such a simple way if that makes sense.

So, for those who say it’s just some vast Eternal plan we don’t know the endgame of, you are basically saying if we don’t suffer here we won’t appreciate the joys to come. Bit like when my gran would say ‘take your coat off or you won’t feel the benefit when you go out in the cold,’ then.

But it still doesn’t make sense given that some suffer more than others on Earth. How does God redress the balance for the FGM victim in a village in Somalia against the privileged, pampered Western girl in Malibu, California. The abused children against those brought up in loving homes? Those who suffer famine, drought and war against those who never know hunger, deprivation or anything but comfort their whole lives? Those who live with painful, crippling conditions and those who die from torturously drawn out diseases against those who always enjoy good health?

Is it like those who suffer most here will get the private swim-up pool cabanas and those who suffered least will have to get up early to put their towels on the Heavenly Resort sunloungers?

that's exactly supposed to be the idea isn't it warped? That those that suffer most are closest to God? I'm not sure I buy it either that there's a direct relationship, if God 'tests' you he loves you more.

Personally when I read about abuse/neglect cases, I wonder about the people and services here that failed them, first and foremost.

Much sympathy to the people that've lost loved ones in terrible circumstances, we have and yes I would struggle to believe there was any God's purpose in that at all. I would however hope to see them again, but we all cling to what we will.

My boss became an atheist on the day of Dunblane. It's the anniversary today.

Babdoc said: "I’m sure God weeps to see the evil that many people perpetrate."

He's a bit of a rubbish God if that's the best he can do!

Ilovebray I was giving a personal experience, I’m not famous, I’m not writing it to try and influence anyone. Where as Sean Lennon, who has fame because of his father speaks, and people take note and even quote him as if he is one who knows. Why compare my humble personal experience (which you have ridiculed) but his is worthy of being quoted. So rude.

savanna22

I just found it odd that you would say a clear and concise explanation of a personal belief is 'rambling' and then go on to write something I couldn't make sense of at all. I've read it a few times and I can't understand it, sorry.

Were you saying an absence of a sign is a sign?

I was giving a personal experience

Anecdotal evidence is worth what?

You get used to these things eventually
We all have the horror story that traumatised you . Then you realise this is life and this happens . Every day

I don’t like but shit evil people have kids . Always have and always will . And nothing can be done to prevent this sadly

i'm not against religion as a pp said it serves a purpose and can be helpful for some. However, I understand where you are coming from.
I had a cousin that died of lung cancer at 21, during the 60's, she was in pain for many years, had limbs amputated and suffered greatly.
Her mum (my auntie) a devoted Christian never set foot in church again apart from a family Christening. How could he let this happen to my dd, was all she said.

any suffering here will be put in to context in the life after

This makes me genuinely angry.

What context would justify the suffering of, for example, Victoria Climbie, Peter Connolly, Daniel Pelka? What context would justify the torture and murder of millions in the Holocaust? What context justified the Rwandan genocide? The killing fields in Cambodia?

There's no god. If there is one, it is evil, and cruel, and I would sooner burn for eternity than waste one single solitary second in worshipping it. There is no context for the terrible, terrible suffering visited on millions of innocents.

The element I struggle with is the suffering of the innocent and often it's the vermin that seem to go on and live long lives.

I think there can be a very powerful argument that those who live suffer more than those who have died.

ilovebray that’s why I said, if that makes sense, I accept it was a bit hard to follow. It’s quite hard to explain.The sign I got wasn’t apparent at the time, but when I got home I realised that something that happened that day, which at the time I thought was insignificant, actually wasn’t. I realise I sound like I’m rambling but I’ll try to explain.

Many months ago I prayed very hard for something in my life that was making me very unhappy, without really thinking about it the problem that was causing me a lot of distress was very slowly eroding away.

That day, when I asked for a sign because my faith was a bit on the wane, something happened (it was in Morrisons) that, when I got home and thought about it showed me very clearly that my prayers (for what was making me unhappy) had been answered. But it culminated that day when I’d asked for the sign. I completely understand if you don’t understand what I mean, but that’s the only way I can explain it, without going into any more details.

For example, these children who are killed. They have short and very painful lives. I think there are a lot of children out there who will be beaten and abused and it never comes to light. So they suffer pain all their childhood and grow up into adults with all the awful issues associated with abuse like mental health issues, personality disorder and addiction. And they have bad relationships as adults and can’t earn much or hold down a job or a home and end up the streets and they continue in the same cycle with their own kids.

Sorry, I’ve worked in a toxicology lab and seen a lot of post mortem toxicology and patient history and honestly I think sometimes the ones who die are best off.

OP I ask the same every time I hear distressing story's such as this. Just how???

I do not know the answer, I am unable to comprehend the evilness of people to do such horrific things to a innocent little child. My only hope is they truly burn in hell for what they have done.