AIBU to be sad that my DD can’t go on a brownie sleepover?

[Only13percentleft]

NC’d for this as it is identifying.

My DD is a Brownie and loves going each week with her friends. Her Brown Owl has asked if the girls would like to go on a region organised sleepover where lots of Brownies sleepover at a theme park and then have a fun day on the rides together.

A bit of back history first. After receiving the Girlguiding email in September (about the inclusion of trans women/girls in the organisation) I wrote to Girlguiding asking if they would still be offering single sex sleeping arrangements (as they are now a single gender organisation) as I didn’t want my DD to be sharing with the opposite sex on residentials. They ‘reassured’ me that they would look to accommodate any request that helps a girl feel more comfortable saying that ‘this has included organising separate facilities for anyone who needs them.’

Fast forward to this sleepover, only 4 months later. I aske d Brown Owl if she could guarantee single sex sleeping accommodation for my DD. She contacted Girlguiding who are organising the sleepover. It has taken them nearly 6 weeks to come back to her but the long and short of it is that they can’t guarantee single sex sleeping accommodation. They’re going to be sleeping in large marquees with lots of different people from different units.

I’m really sad for my DD who now cannot attend this event. She needs to be in single sex sleeping accommodation and this can’t be guaranteed.

And if anyone asks why I’m posting this now, it is to make other people aware of this situation, especially as sleepovers are being organised for the summer. Girlguiding do not make it explicitly clear that single sex sleeping accommodation is not their default position. They do not say on their permission forms that you may be sleeping in the same space as someone of the opposite sex. Leaders are also not allowed to tell you if this is/is not the case.

^Vixxxy* thou shalt now be called liar, in small increments....

The OP refers to a hypothetical situation. There might be a trans girl present which could, if they are present, create a privacy issue. Just as this ignores, yet again, what the OP actually said.

See, round and round and round we go... when it will stop, nobody knows! Or cares...

Its not controversial to say that, but one thing does not cancel out the other. Yes, some girls will be uncomfortable with joint changing, I would have been and still to this day hate communal changing and will hide away in the loo (my mother finds this hilarious when we go to spas and that and says I am ridiculous) but..thats nothing to do with allowing male people into female spaces. Its a different problem.

Does anyone have any idea of the numbers of trans children in this age group?

How many of that small number are male to female and if those actually want to join brownies?

Of them, how many go on sleepovers?

Even then you really think trans girls of this age group pose any risk to the girls?

Statistically I would have thought there was more chance of your child being in an accident on the way to camp than being at risk from a trans girl while sleeping in a big marquee at a brownie sleepover.

I just don’t understand the level of concern here.

Where do this tiny number of trans girls belong? Are you saying they should join cubs instead? Similar issues would still crop up re sleeping arrangements. Should they have to stay at home or should those who object to their presence do so? This would apply to both boys and girls in a cubs group or girls in a brownies group.

Are you saying they should join cubs instead? Similar issues would still crop up re sleeping arrangements.

But cubs is mixed sex...and open about it.

GG claim to be single sex, while being mixed sex. They actually argue with parents who ask about it being mixed sex, claiming its not mixed sex, while being mixed sex.

Purplejay I doubt there are known numbers... but the general stas on under 16 year olds, mainy girls, wanting to transition are, frankly, terrifying.

I just don’t understand the level of concern here. That's possibly ebevasue of the massive derailment. The original poster gave 4 possible scenarios, included previous abuse and a local authority edict regarding a fostered child. Both of which would make it necessary for OP to check the validity of the single sex description. On receiving a "We can't/won't tell you" answer she was left with no choice.

Where do this tiny number of trans girls belong? Are you saying they should join cubs instead? Why not? They at least do safeguard on the basis that they have children of both sexes present. If the Girl Guides did that then none of this would be being discussed!

Should they have to stay at home or should those who object to their presence do so? Well, I want to say, no, nobody is saying that. However some posters, and the Girl Guides, are saying that many girls should do just that, because... abuse, religion, looked after child, just a personal preference. Why no consideration for them?

Vixxxy

No I get that. 1 issue doesn't cancel the other.

It was what was expressed at the start of the thread though. People raised concerns about the possibility of a trans girl being there, saying it was a safeguarding and privacy issue. Which makes it sound like, if the trans girl isn't there, that there are no safeguarding or privacy issues.

CuriousaboutSamphire

Not ignoring the OP at all. Many subsequent posters started discussing the issue of privacy. I didn't introduce the concept.

I find the basic presumption of the OP that any transgender female is going to be a predator somewhat disturbing. It's transphobic at best. Hateful at worst. I've commented earlier in the thread. I haven't read the intervening comments TLDR, but I'm guessing how this went down.....
Sad really.
I genuinely hope some of you never have a child who wants to trans. What are you going to do? Beat it out of them?

Some posters finally agreed about privacy only after I brought it up Make your mind up!

Numbers?

Well put it this way.

A school in Brighton has 76 children identifying as trans. St Paul's girls school in London, with 10 girls in the same class coming out simultaneously.

Two and a half thousand children are deemed serious enough to take to gender clinics each year. (As opposed to virtually none before this all kicked off).

Thread after thread on here where people either are trans, know someone who is trans, or know children in their kid's' class who are trans.

The link I have posted above, is a Facebook group of parents who wants penis packers for their kindergarten children. The Facebook group has over 8000 members.

When you have trans lobby groups going into schools and telling girls that if they like boys' stuff, they must be the wrong sex (and vice a versa), i would say that this is a problem that is going to absolutely mushroom, very very soon.

Saying it won't be many people, is exactly how this shit show happened in the first place.

Instead of deciding that the way to deal with it is by burying your head in the sand and convincing yourself it's a rarity, let's just make the policy work!

People raised concerns about the possibility of a trans girl being there, saying it was a safeguarding and privacy issue. Which makes it sound like, if the trans girl isn't there, that there are no safeguarding or privacy issues. Liar by a thousand cuts again. It has been explained to you, often, that this is NOT WHAT HAS BEEN SAID BY ANYONE OTHER THAN YOU! It is your misinterpretation, one you persist in repeating.

There are different issues, different risks. But if you do not acknowledge that transgirls are present then you cannot appropriately safeguard them or the girls present. Members of staff are also left unprotected by the choice Girl Guides made - as some of those leaders have also explained here.

TLDR, but I'm guessing how this went down..... Then you would be wrong and your own bigotry is showing!

I find the basic presumption of the OP that any transgender female is going to be a predator somewhat disturbing. It's transphobic at best. Hateful at worst. I've commented earlier in the thread. I haven't read the intervening comments TLDR, but I'm guessing how this went down.....
Sad really.
I genuinely hope some of you never have a child who wants to trans. What are you going to do? Beat it out of them?

Ugh.

Does it bring you out in hives, all that lying?

7Pip No. The basic presumption of the OP is that she needs and wants to be able to ensure that her dd's needs are being met in regard to single sexed spaces.

GG's would be able to do that if they were open about the fact that they've become a mixed sex organisation. There would be forums and policies to outline safeguarding, privacy, individual needs etc.

To answer your question, if one of my children 'wants to be trans' I would listen to what they have to say and ensure that their needs are being met. This would not involve me telling them that they are, in fact, the opposite sex, because that would be untruthful. HTH.

Some posters finally agreed about privacy only after I brought it up

Make your mind up!

I've not changed my mind.

Weird how a thread about the current state of brownies/guides was so swiftly turned around to be all about girls infiltrating (aka rescuing) cubs/scouts.

Must every topic always be about the penis owners and how hard done by they all are by the vagina havers?

I'm sorry? How am I a bigot exactly?

HTH?

No Cristina. It doesn't help at all honey.

Liar by a thousand cuts again.

Where has anyone else then mentioned privacy, not in relation to a trans girl, before I raised it? If I am such a liar.

There are over 900 posts here, most of which (from a skim) are long-winded and full of fear and hatred. I really don't wish to engage with such people. I am allowed an opinion however.
I can see why England voted to leave. It is a very backwards nation.

I genuinely hope some of you never have a child who wants to trans. What are you going to do? Beat it out of them?
Is “beat it out of them” the alternative to saying single sex dormitories/dressing rooms/washing facilities are necessary?

What nonsense is this?

I really hope anyone who is for “early transition”, including drugs and surgery doesn’t have a child to do that to.

I genuinely hope some of you never have a child who wants to trans. What are you going to do? Beat it out of them?

Don't be so ridiculous.

I'd support them.

What I wouldn't do is tell them that their rights trump absolutely everyone else's and that stamping their feet to change that won't get them anywhere.

I'd also keep them as far away from the Tavistock and Mermaids as I possibly could.

But then, that's a reasoned approach and doesn't really fit in with your trans phobe agenda does it?

7Pip I'm Scottish, we voted to remain. And also went to court to stop the trans rights eroding safe guarding for women and girls.

Which succeeded incidentally, avoiding self ID applying to schools, changing rooms and toilets.

Something I'm spectacularly proud of.

Where has anyone else then mentioned privacy, not in relation to a trans girl, before I raised it? If I am such a liar. You see, another misunderstanding.

You have said both that you did and did not start the privacy thing. Which is it?

And I have not called you a liar, I have said that you imply others are, by lots of little mis types... as you have done with the privacy thing.

7Pip if that's the level of thought you gave it I wish you well. But you have absolutely misunderstood many of the posts you have only skimmed!

Weetabixandshreddies having stepped away and come back, privacy laws have fuck all to do with the awful bullying your DD endured.

You and the school had the responsibility to protect her using anti bullying legislation.

So really, it wasn't teenage girls at fault was it? It was the adults supposed to protect her.

There are over 900 posts here, most of which (from a skim) are long-winded and full of fear and hatred. I really don't wish to engage with such people. I am allowed an opinion however.

It never ceases to amaze me how people can't have a completely erroneous, and dense opinion about something which they admit they haven't read!

I'm not sure where you are from, 7Pip, but the 8000 parents who want plastic penises with a harness, strapped to their three-year-old daughters, isn't from a British site.

Nor is the woman whose son has discovered masturbation, but his hormone drugs are interfering with it, so she wants him to stop masturbating and keep becoming the daughter she never had.

(He, unsurprisingly, wants to stop taking them and keep wanking.).