Forgetting everything but the fact an innocent baby has died

[UnexpectedButExpected]

AIBU to feel unbelievably sad that Shamima Bergum’s baby has died.

The poor mite simply didn’t have a chance in the world he was born in to.

What the young women from Rochdale or the ones who went off to Syria. I’m not sure who you think I’m insulting

Smotheroffive

How often do you see one of these men on tv, holding a tiny baby, trying to garner sympathy?

She's trying to exploit being a woman and losing 3 babies in a way that a man wouldn't get away with.

I'll give you a clue, it's not the Isis brides I think you're insulting.

She wasn’t groomed as far as I am concerned she went of her own free will.

Smotheroffive
Which bit do you not understand this piece of shit chose to go to Syria and join ISIS, on what planet do you live to think the UK has any responsibity to this creature. hopefully the Kurds and Turks come to an agreement and bomb the fucking lot of them.

Why do you thinks she's 'parading' her tiny very ill baby?

It was very covered, what I saw, and who leaves a newborn somewhere else, especially in those circumstances. All the mums I've known have pretty much carried their tiny newborns around with them.

I dont get the point you make.

I don't think that it's the women that have the power and control here. Not at all. They are suffering extreme subjugation, that's as well as only having been less than 15 when all this started. She's been exploited, at best.

No it’s not unreasonable to feel sad at the death of a baby.
It’s also not unreasonable to feel disgust, despair and horror at the fact that ISIS have slaughtered more than 1,200 people in their attacks outside of Syria and Iraq.

Totally pointless trying to explain to someone whose thought process is as basic as ‘she’s female; therefore she can’t possibly be held accountable’ despite the wealth of evidence that she actively chose this path and supported (and still supports) the vile atrocities.

Hugely insulting to women everywhere.

And what about male ISIS terrorists who (unlike Begum) might actually have been encouraged from a very young age to fight for the cause? Who might have had guns thrust into their hands while still a young child? Are they not accountable either?

There is a difference between “explain” and “excuse”.

And this is not because she is a woman- it’s because she was no older than 14 when the grooming/radicalisation started.

Exactly Bertrand

Yes of course there’s a difference. I expect most of us have an understanding of the explanations behind radicalisation. I was referring to the posts which suggest that Begum is somehow now accountable and that the ‘UK has blood on its hands’ because her children died.

not accountable

Do you think the same about all young people involved in crime, particularly those in gangs? 15/16 year olds stabbing people, running county lines, mugging people... It's widely known that they are groomed into gang life. Should they not be punished for their crimes? Many of them have less than ideal family lives and are very young when brought into the gangs. Shall we be sympathetic to them too, even though they are killing people and dealing drugs?

They should be held accountable for crimes committed, but it should be considered that they are young and vulnerable or were when they joined.

God knows gangs groom young kids to be the next lot of cannon fodder. It's disgusting and absolutely deliberate.

I've not once said Begum shouldn't face justice, nor have I said anyone should go and get her.

I've pointed out that she is the one that everyone is holding up because for some reason she's the one being used as the poster child for IS.

The hypocrisy in targeting her without worrying about the men is also something I'd commented on.

When SB went abroad, the Police at the time said she (plus her friends) had been radicalised via a woman already in Syria.

Any parent going into Syria to bring back their DD, would have been killed.

SB should be dealt with by the UK authorities and not palmed off to a developing country to deal with, its also in our self interest, SB will become a poster girl for every potential IS recruit if she stays in Syria, SB has said she would like to return to the UK and help stop others making the same mistakes as her.

We only have to look at the recent knife killings in London, despite 100s of deaths, inc females (but almost all black) it took the murder of a white girl guide before this issue rose to the top of the political agenda.

We only have to look at the recent knife killings in London, despite 100s of deaths, inc females (but almost all black) it took the murder of a white girl guide before this issue rose to the top of the political agenda

This. Phillip Hammond declined to provide extra money police forces were asking for to combat knife crime the week before Jodie Chesney was killed. He announced after her death there was a new emergency fund.

She matters, of course she does. But so do the many hundreds of BAME victims who came before her.

i don’t understand how wanting to know how young people got into the life they’re in and acknowledging the outside influences they may have been subject to equates to not wanting them punished or excusing them. It’s almost at if some people can’t hold two different ideas in their heads at the same time.

Because we can look into the hows and whys without bringing her back here.

Maybe she is being "held up as a poster girl" because she, herself, thought that she could use the media to manipulate opinion to bring her back.

If it comes to light about her being directly involved in terrorist activities will that change your views on her?

And for what it's worth, if she gets back to the UK or to an embassy then yes, bring her back and try her. Until then I don't see any reason to attempt to bring her back.

“If it comes to light about her being directly involved in terrorist activities will that change your views on her?“

It would not change the fact that she was groomed/radicalised when she was no older than 14.

Was she 14? Even if she were, how does that impact on what you think should happen to her?

Weetabix - she is a product of uk society and it was well known that the authorities, at the time, had concerns about her increasing radicalised views but nothing was done.

We should not actively try and bring her back but she is a british citizen, who has been party to horrendous crimes and should be treated as such, if she ever gets back here.

I'd also question the motives of the original journalist who tracked her down, what was he hoping to achieve?

can’t believe anyone is actually asking why Begum is being ‘held up’ as some kind of example. It’s because she has courted publicity and tried to use the media to get what she’s now decided she wants.

Well, she was 15 when she left, so it’s reasonable to assume that she was 14 at the oldest when the grooming/radicalisation process started.
I don’t know how she should be treated- that’s for experts to determine. But all the circumstances need to be taken into consideration. If only to help prevent other young people going down the same path.