Amber Rudd

[sue51]

I'm seeking to understand the differences between the terms “coloured women” and “women of colour”. They sound intrinsically similar but they may well be different, and a web search didn’t help in defining the difference.

The first term was used by Amber Rudd yesterday, and she quickly apologised as it had caused offence, but was still under criticism in the main national news. If a term is offensive then it’s right that it isn’t used, and where it has been used that should be the subject of an apology.

However, the term “women of colour” was used on Radio 4 this morning, and a review of the play Richard II at the Sam Wannamaker Playhouse by the Guardian’s Michael Billington prominently used the term “women of colour”, and one would have thought, given the Guardian’s credentials, that the term would not be used if it was likely to cause offence.

So, and asked in all sincerity, can anyone explain the difference between these two terms, and why one is deemed to be offensive while the other is apparently not? I would be mortified if I used a term which caused offence to someone but am genuinely curious about the difference in this case.

“But then you have Luciana Berger's experience of being excluded from BAME campus groups because, tho' Jews are a minority, they are not, generally, black

There is another level of just being ridiculous.”
Is it? Should white Jewish people be able to join BAME groups?

Why should they not? Jewishness is an ethnic identity as well as a faith - in fact for many Jews I know, they retain their identity as Jews despite having no faith.

I’ve a feeling I’m going to wish I hadn’t asked that question, actually.

Because in my area I've never once heard people being referred to as people of colour - not once!

fascicle I thought we'd covered this. The National Association for the Advancement of Coloured People - which still hasn't changed its name to this day - was the driver of the Civil Rights Movement. It wasn't till Malcom X and Black Power and Afros that the general usage of 'coloured' was questioned.

FEF - the school I taught in had a black Headteacher. On one occasion, a delegation of black girls approached her, up in arms because a classmate had used the word 'coloured'. It was not meant to be offensive. The classmate had recently arrived in the UK. They thought they would find a sympathetic ear. She told them that she was Coloured and proud of it. Cape Coloured - her part-black, part Afrikaans, family had come to this country in the 50's, I imagine after Apartheid was introduced.

I think they also got a bit of a lecture on not taking offence when none was intended.

“BertrandRussell

Nish Kumar calls himself brown.”

Really like Nish Kumar, very funny (and extremely handsome, completely irrelevant I know

I do squirm when he goes on about “white people” so much, as though we’re all a big, homogenous blob.
Which of course is I guess is exactly how people felt for years when they were all grouped together as “coloured” ......
Won’t it be nice when one day people are just, well, people.
Yes, I know, incredibly naive. Shrugs shoulders and scratches head.

“I do squirm when he goes on about “white people” so much, as though we’re all a big, homogenous blob”

I think that might be why he does it!

“Jewishness is an ethnic identity as well as a faith”

Do all Jewish people regard themselves as members of an ethnic as well as a faith group? Genuine question- I don’t know the answer.

BertrandRussell: Indeed. And it works doesn’t it. Plus, he’s very handsome .....

Thymeout

My comments related to discussion of the basis for claimed acceptability in the UK and not the US. Your headteacher story highlights different usage/connotations of the term 'coloured' in South Africa. You have already made the point in a previous post about terms not being universally acceptable.

I’m not sure you need to know Jews to answer the question, Bertrand. A passing acquaintance with the history of the Jews in Europe ought to make the answer pretty obvious. Unless, of course, wilful blindness to that is your thing. V common these days, especially among those who like to say they’re left wing.
I despair. Genuinely. Truly hopeless.

Fair enough- don’t answer the question. The Jewish people I know would, I am pretty sure, tick the “White British” box on a form, and would not think they counted a BAME.

I don't know whether all Jews regard themselves as an ethnic group, but I would be very surprised if they didn't. Historically, of course, non-practising Jews were sent to Auschwitz along with observant ones. even second generation descendants of one who had married out of the faith. Incidentally, Orthodox Jews perform the ceremony for a death if one of the family marries out. They are metaphorically dead to them. It's not an evangelical faith. It's quite a performance for a non-Jew to be admitted and, even then, only to a liberal synagogue.

Ethnicity passes down the female line - because it's a wise child who knows its own father. I've only recently discovered that my great grandmother was Jewish. She was a refugee from the pogroms in Central Europe. Her parents died and she ended up in a Catholic orphanage. This tenuous ethnic connection was enough for my mother's cousin to be accepted into a very grand Jewish Care Home when he needed it, even though he'd have said he was C of E all his life.

I am genuinely stunned that you would need to ask whether Jewishness is an ethnicity as well as a faith. How does a person emerge from even a substandard education in this country needing to ask that question?

Actually I don’t think you do need to ask. I think you’re being a particular mindset to the discussion. It’s one I find unpleasant. Over and out.

It's Black and Minority Ethnic - I don't think they mean Black and those with a funny tinge. Jews are certainly a Minority Ethnic group and more persecuted than most in the UK. I'm referring to swastika graffiti, security guards employed as nurseries, schools and care homes. I assume the need for such a group is related to the special needs and support required compared with the rest of the community.

My son routinely puts down African on those forms because that's where the human race originated. He disapproves of them in principle. He's always been my difficult one.

One last thought. I just asked my dh what sort of person queries whether Jewishness is an ethnic identity as well as a faith. He answered “an anti Semite.” I’ll concede there may be other explanations, but that’s the impression you’re giving to the outside world.

The Jewish people I know would, I am pretty sure, tick the “White British” box on a form, and would not think they counted a BAME

The Jews I know would without exception tick ‘White Other’.

Do all Jewish people regard themselves as members of an ethnic as well as a faith group? Genuine question- I don’t know the answer.

Of course - almost all Jews in Europe will be part of the Ashkenazi ethnic group or the Sephardi ethnic group, or a mix of the two.

I mean, why else are Ashkenazi Jews more likely to be carriers of Tay-Sachs disease? Do you think it’s because of their religious practices?

For all those who say that Amber Rudd is living in a white Tory bubble etc, her ex partner is a black Tory MP

And before that AAGill. He called AR 'Silver Spoon' in his columns. She preceded The Blonde. Not that that's particularly relevant.

I honestly think it was a slip of the tongue. As pp said, Person of Colour is difficult to fit into sentence when the construction of the sentence you've embarked on demands an adjective. The purport of what she was saying was entirely sympathetic to women like Diane Abbott who receive both racist and misogynist abuse. That was her point.

I've always defended DA when people have called her thick. It was no mean feat for a black girl from a working class home to win a place at Cambridge in the 70s. And she was the first black woman MP. But she's been coasting for a number of years and didn't do well when she was given a ministerial position under Miliband. There's no way she would have been Shadow Home Secretary under anyone but Corbyn and she is an adherent to the same extremist politics, c.f. her remarks about Chairman Mao. Whether through illness or laziness, she's made a pig's ear of that, too. Yvette Cooper, as Chair of the Home Affairs Select C'ttee, has run rings round her - and May, as it happens.

I'd think more of her if she'd graciously accepted AR's apology instead of making political capital out of it - as she's doing now with SB's baby. She's accused Javid of populism in stripping SB of citizenship - which is true - but doing the same herself, just to a different constituency.

Some odd comments/content in your assessment of Diane Abbott, Thymeout - you're highly critical of her and rather than mentioning any political achievements in her career, your positive comments are limited to defending her when people have called her thick and suggesting she's done well for a black woman, getting a place at Cambridge and becoming the first black female MP. (On a thread about racism and poor choices of language, it's probably best to steer clear of unsubstantiated personal comments e.g. whether through illness or laziness... )

I'd think more of her if she'd graciously accepted AR's apology instead of making political capital out of it - as she's doing now with SB's baby. She's accused Javid of populism in stripping SB of citizenship - which is true - but doing the same herself, just to a different constituency.

How has Abbott made political capital out of Judd's comment? On Twitter she said: The term "coloured", is an outdated, offensive and revealing choice of words. And she is quite right. She also retweeted a few comments/opinions from others, amidst posts about other subjects. Her comments on Shamima Begum were not inconsistent with her previous position on the proposed stripping of her citizenship.

Amber Rudd should have apologised during the interview as soon as she'd used the term coloured woman. But she didn't bat an eyelid. Perhaps Abbott and others might find her 'mortification' more credible and more readily accept an apology had she immediately acknowledged her error.

She's accused Javid of populism in stripping SB of citizenship - which is true - but doing the same herself, just to a different constituency.

No comparison between the two. Abbott was measured in her response to Rudd's comments and the implication that she should have accepted Rudd's apology/not commented further is rather unpalatable as is the idea that her actions amount to populism.

DonaldTwain - even more surprising is that many young people don't even know about the Holocaust

JRM - It would be nice if people were just people. I work in a happy multi-cultural, multi-ethnic environment with strong, compassionate leadership. We all get on.

FEF1102 - I was sitting on the Tube a while back, opposite three young black guys. They were using the N word as a term of endearment "He's my N brother" about a friend.

KingHenry - the use of what is acceptable language can be confusing for non native English speakers Thyme's headteacher story illustrates that. Someone who speaks English as a foreign language unintentionally using the wrong word is NOT being deliberately offensive.

If one looks at the 'coloured / people of colour' issue, it is essentially the same word. If it is used as a noun it is acceptable; if it's an adjective it's not. Very confusing if you are speaking English as a foreign language.

If one looks at the 'coloured / people of colour' issue, it is essentially the same word. If it is used as a noun it is acceptable; if it's an adjective it's not.

Good grief. There are enormous differences between those expressions in terms of usage/history/connotations/acceptability. (And I'm sure you cannot mean that 'coloured' as a noun is acceptable.)