Amber Rudd

[sue51]

I'm seeking to understand the differences between the terms “coloured women” and “women of colour”. They sound intrinsically similar but they may well be different, and a web search didn’t help in defining the difference.

The first term was used by Amber Rudd yesterday, and she quickly apologised as it had caused offence, but was still under criticism in the main national news. If a term is offensive then it’s right that it isn’t used, and where it has been used that should be the subject of an apology.

However, the term “women of colour” was used on Radio 4 this morning, and a review of the play Richard II at the Sam Wannamaker Playhouse by the Guardian’s Michael Billington prominently used the term “women of colour”, and one would have thought, given the Guardian’s credentials, that the term would not be used if it was likely to cause offence.

So, and asked in all sincerity, can anyone explain the difference between these two terms, and why one is deemed to be offensive while the other is apparently not? I would be mortified if I used a term which caused offence to someone but am genuinely curious about the difference in this case.

When I was at primary school we sang a song in assembly (semi-religious): "over the seas there are little brown children...I kid you not

Omg I never heard that one

It sounds so colonial and pre WW2 now I come to think of it (believe me, I'm not that old).

And you don’t see anything at all racist in the way language is used in that poem/joke/whatever it is? Maybe all the PC gone mad people can come and defend why this young boy should accept being called coloured while white remains the default.

The word "people of colour" is another descriptive term people use to try and be more inclusive. Not every dark person is black.

It's always the protection of the faux closet racist, isn't it.

^It's so confusing
It changes and will change again
It's the same word used in a different way
It was used in my day
PC gone mad^
^No one meant any harm
Snowflake
^
The underlying intent stays the same. We're in charge, know your place ni**er

^
^

NewModel

There must have been some national conversation about it, because I do remember one music session where our piano teacher clearly felt great pains to be more inclusive. Up until then we were singing a meddley of English traditional and popular songs as well as hymns.

Teacher suddenly got us singing 'Jamaica Farewell'

She was doing well until she said "I would like all the caribbean children to sing it in patois'

Now I'm confused. Bertrand: 'And you don't see anything at all racist in the way language is used in that poem/joke/whatever it is?'

Are you saying it's a racist poem because it's written in vernacular? Tho'. the meaning is obviously, to me at any rate, anti-racist.

I dimly remember it being included in a GCSE Eng 'Anthology', which it most certainly wouldn't have been if it had been considered racist. There were other poems, too, on the same topic. One about how South Africa really hadn't changed much, and one by a Caribbean poet using a variation of patois.

why the hell do so Many people get it unintentionally wrong then? I'm an educated modern woman and I'm confused!

It's not hard to avoid the word 'coloured' Don't use that word with anyone.

You can refer to a person whose got direct black and white heritage as mixed race, although some prefer dual-heritage.

People of colour refers to everyone depending on the context ie., "When it comes to lead parts in films, people of colour have traditionally been under represented" This clearly refers to everyone not white european

It can also be used as in: "Connie Chung, whose parents are from China, was one of the first American women of colour to become a news anchor on a prominant TV network"

Or "Salma is proud of her latina roots. Sugar magazine talks to the 32 year old actress about her latest role and how women of colour are represented in the film industry'

If in doubt use black. The person will correct you. But if you use straight coloured the person may take offence.

I didn’t think the poem was racist. The use of the vernacular reminded me of a lot of the colour purple and i actually was reminded of maya angelou (rip). See it is attributed to first president of Senegal, Malcom x, the Oglala Lakota tribe (s Dakota) nd “an African boy named Oglala Lakota”. Was apparently also nominated for poem of the year by the Un in 2006. Certainly its source seems a bit confused online anyway.

What about for people of Asian descent.
Is it acceptable to use brown?

Nish Kumar calls himself brown.

I stand corrected about that poem- although its origins are very confused. I’ve known of it for ages, and assumed it was a “fridge magnet” type thing.

Bertrand "I stand corrected"

Erm sorry but I'm 2019 you cannot say something wrong and take it back like amber did. What we say stands... forever even if you apologise, means nothing apparently

Fair enough- I don’t mind people knowing I made a mistake!

Yep, "unforgivable" I think you said.

I don’t mind if you never forgive me for misattributing a poem either!

Incidentally, plenty of things are foregivable. Racism isn’t.

Someone should pint that out to Duane Abbott the next time she excuses the anti semitism of her leader.

Bertrand, did you think the poem was racist or not? I thought that you made it clear that you thought it was racist. I don't like it. It doesn't matter to me whether it was written by a white or Black person. Its bloody patronising. But you seem to have changed your view.

Bertrand?

The whole topic of multiculturalism is too complicated for an Internet forum. And I don't think there's a definitive version of the right approach, just lots of different approaches, all hotly disputed.

We've been through the melting pot to the fruit salad, colour-blindness to celebration of individual cultures. It's only recently that it's been acceptable to criticise another culture. Seriously, I remember an INSET day when someone argued that it was racist to condemn FGM and child marriage and if we did so we were revealing out Western imperialist roots. (A bit like a pp who accused anyone who disagreed with her of being a closet racist.) The same political faction maintains that democracy is a Western concept and supports dictatorships like Assad in Syria and Maduro in Venezuela and is mysteriously silent about marxist Mugabe.

The 'People of Colour' terminology is not universally accepted. I know British Indians, in particular, who object to being lumped into the same category as Pakistanis as 'Asians', let alone Black British. It doesn't seem to fit both Connie Chung and Oprah Winfrey as a descriptor. Minority would probably be a better term. But then you have Luciana Berger's experience of being excluded from BAME campus groups because, tho' Jews are a minority, they are not, generally, black. And Dawn Butler, Black British, not knowing if her brief included Jews when she was appointed shadow minister for equality and minority communities.

Which is why I argue against calling out examples of casual racism and casual sexism. It's too complex an issue to make a knee jerk reaction on the spot to a throwaway remark.

But then you have Luciana Berger's experience of being excluded from BAME campus groups because, tho' Jews are a minority, they are not, generally, black

There is another level of just being ridiculous.

There is no comparison between BertrandRussell's interpretation of the poem and Amber Rudd's error (which on paper AR should have been incapable of making).

Alsohuman
@fascicle, my parents taught me it was the polite term to use, I don’t know who taught them that

So there is no basis or source for your claim of acceptability (beyond third person usage by others) - no evidence of people choosing to label themselves as 'coloured'.

I never said there was.

@ElizabethMainwaring-I don’t know now. In the context that I came across it, it was certainly deeply patronising and borderline racist-a cutesy fridge magnetty thing with a cartoon black person with a big grin next to it. But if it really was written by a small “African” child then it’s quite an insightful piece of children’s writing. I’ve done a bit of googling and remain none the wiser about it. It has been around a long time though.

This also confuses me as I visit South Africa often and see the way vocabulary is used over there not in a negative way but just as a label. Black people refer to themselves as black. There are also people who are coloured. Both refer to each other as either black or coloured and God forbid you refer to one as the other. Black people get offended to be called coloured and coloured get offended to be called black. Interestingly young people of all races are using the N word as a term of endearment as a way of empowering themselves in the same way people are using 'people of colour' as a way of empowering themselves. It has now become a friendly term over there. I regularly use 'coloured' as a label when I visit as is appropriate there but can't bring myself to use the N word as a term of endearment. I wonder if that will become the case in the UK and people will follow their example?

Why is it confusing that different countries have different ways of doing things? Did you know that they put mayonnaise on chips in Belgium not ketchup and they drive on the right in France?