Amber Rudd

[sue51]

I'm seeking to understand the differences between the terms “coloured women” and “women of colour”. They sound intrinsically similar but they may well be different, and a web search didn’t help in defining the difference.

The first term was used by Amber Rudd yesterday, and she quickly apologised as it had caused offence, but was still under criticism in the main national news. If a term is offensive then it’s right that it isn’t used, and where it has been used that should be the subject of an apology.

However, the term “women of colour” was used on Radio 4 this morning, and a review of the play Richard II at the Sam Wannamaker Playhouse by the Guardian’s Michael Billington prominently used the term “women of colour”, and one would have thought, given the Guardian’s credentials, that the term would not be used if it was likely to cause offence.

So, and asked in all sincerity, can anyone explain the difference between these two terms, and why one is deemed to be offensive while the other is apparently not? I would be mortified if I used a term which caused offence to someone but am genuinely curious about the difference in this case.

alsohuman- If there is a difference of opinion among the people who were there, whose version is to be accepted?
I think that there is definitely a question over the “it was more polite” narrative because we don’t actually know who decided it was more polite and whether black people said it was. I was dealing with policy documents so presumably (maybe not? I don’t think I asked at the time) some research had gone into the language we should be using?

I notice, BetrandRussell, that you, again, avoid answering the question properly. I would like to know whether you think, by virtue of disagreeing with you on this thread, BigChocFrenzy is guilty of casual racism. I am not at all interested to know if you think she is mistaken or that her views are “unhelpful in societal and political terms”. (Although, I have to say, the level of insane conceit in that assessment certainly takes some beating.)

I don’t think racism is a word that can ever be applied to a black person in an overwhelmingly white majority country. And black people must deal with the casual racism that they meet every day in the way they think best. I have no right to an opinion on that. I do have the right to an opinion on the best way to approach systemic racism, and I don’t think letting high profile public figures “get away” with it is the best way forward.

faffandahalf I meant that whenever I come to use the term person pof colour I await correction... I make no mention of anyone being my inferior - but that you jumped to that might show you why some of the people you are talking about feel some trepidation whenever skin colour becomes a topic of conversation - as in this thread, not some racist gathering, obviously!

I have fuck all patience with anyone still insisting that 'coloured' was never the PC terminology. It was. Plenty of poster remember it being so, plenty don't. It is quite posible that both are right and wrong!

It is entirely possible that it was some white person's interpretation of correctness. I have no idea. I just know that it was the word I was told to use - by teachers and other adults. But I lived in a very white rural area of England, as I think I epxlained. So I have no idea what the 'real world' was thinking!

OK that’s helpful, BetrandRussell, and, obviously, a retreat from the position that everyone, by virtue of disagreeing with you, is necessarily guilty of casual racism. Now the black contributors are merely “mistaken”!

The only difference of opinion on whether it was considered polite is between you and pretty much everyone else whose memories take them back to the 70s @Bertrand. I thought you'd conceded that one many posts back in the face of the many people who had been taught that.

I remember being royally told off in about 1975 for going home and telling DM that my new friend was black. It's coloured, she insisted, as a polite MC woman determined to show manners at all times.

DM is now in her 90s and although she understands that coloured is no longer acceptable, she cannot bring herself to say black as her ingrained belief that it is impolite is too strong.

AR clearly understands that she was wrong and has apologised.

Her partner is black and she was making a point about the abuse that Dianne Abbot experiences for being female and black.

@Bluntness100

I've just turned. 50 and can categorically assure you, in the seventies, and like others on this thread, that growing up it was not considered polite or correct to refer to someone as black,

Im 51. Never had this. Always knew saying coloured was racist. Maybe your family and community were racist and you didn't notice? Have you noticed now or still making excuses?

A pp commented on the LP and Anti-semitism, saying that it was a topic for another thread. Call me cynical, but I think there's a connection. Amber Rudd made her gaffe on the same day as the news broke that the HREC was opening investigations into the LP. Diane Abbott had been the subject of quite a lot of criticism over the previous 2 days for not speaking up about her CLP passing a motion in defence of Chris Williamson, even though she was present at the meeting.

I'm not saying she wouldn't have protested about AR's language in any case, but she certainly made as much use as she could of a distraction from her own problems. I also think that she has more to apologise for than AR in this instance, when we're talking racism. Being complicit in the support for an anti-semitism denier is worse for me, than a slip of the tongue, for which AR immediately apologised. I'm not an AR fan by any means, but I do occasionally refer to 'the wireless' when I'm talking about radio, so I know how the brain plays tricks.

I grew up in SE London. My grandmother lived in Deptford all her life. She referred to her neighbour as 'a coloured gentleman'. She honestly did think she was being polite. He cut her hedge, she gave his children sweets. It was a genuine relationship. I've no idea if he found her language offensive. I doubt it. I do, however, cringe now when I remember my teenage 'right-on' self telling her she was wrong.

I, of course, say 'black' but something in my past makes me hear the word said in a South African accent as 'bleck'. It's a complicated subject this multi-cultural thing.

Btw When I first started teaching To Kill a Mockingbird, in the late 60s, 'negro' was a neutral term, like Caucasian. Harper Lee certainly uses it in that way. It wasn't till the late 90's that an Afro-Caribbean pupil complained that her teacher, an Asian from Goa, was racist because she used the term.

And my hairdresser, from Deliverance country in N.E. Kent, visibly flinches when I say something like, 'The black girls at school were so stylish. Much better dress sense than the white girls.' She is white and I suspect just a little bit racist. I think it confuses her that I'm being so bold about using, in her view, racist terminology.

Poor sue51, the op, and me, the first contributor, both looking for clarification.
Oh well.

I came here to add my two pence but this thread is an absolute joke. The same troupe as usual.

Anyway!

Colour.”
When I born, I black
When I grow up, I black
When I go in Sun, I black
When I scared, I black
When I sick, I black
And when I die, I still black

And you white fellow
When you born, you pink
When you grow up, you white
When you go in sun, you red
When you cold, you blue
When you scared, you yellow
When you sick, you green
And when you die, you gray

And you calling me colored?

quencher like that a lot.

And you don’t see anything at all racist in the way language is used in that poem/joke/whatever it is?

I cannot believe that there's hundreds of comments. Amber Rudd wasn't meaning to hurt anyone and just used clumsy language for which she apologised for.

People are getting offended over the tiniest things these days. And it seems humans can't make mistakes anymore and their apologies won't be accepted I fear for the world my kids are being raised in, what am I meant to tell them? Basically you can't fuck up otherwise you'll be in trouble forever and people will never forgive you. Oh and even if you mean well and have good intentions it stands for nothing.

Amber rudd mentioned race in the bloody first place because she was being sympathetic to the online abuse received by many women particularly bad for people where there is racial abuse involved.

She didn't say anything mean, she didn't say anything derogatory. If I was Diane... I would have been pleased that a white person had identified that in 2019 it's insane that people receive online abuse and had specifically called out racial abuse as a separate topic, quite rightly so as it's an important topic. I might have had a separate word with amber to pull her up on her clumsy language but given her well meaning intentions I probably wouldn't have embarrassed her online over a single word which is incredibly similar to the "allowed" term.

After quencher's contribution, I'm unexpectedly on Bertrand's side.

Poor sue51, the op, and me, the first contributor, both looking for clarification.
Oh well

'Coloured' was common parlance in the in the 70s etc. But dropped out of favour due to Aparthied and the legacy of the civil rights movement. I remember it being used all the time when I was younger and I have to say I really disliked it and I recall my family and others despising it too. However, some older white people from that generation still use it because they felt the term 'black' was wrong in their day, and some may find this continued use annoying and offensive and some do not.

'People of colour' refers to those others who may for various reasons not fit into/agree with the term 'black' Think of someone from Brazil, Columbia or Venezuala. They have mixed Portugese/Spanish/African/Native American ancestry and some can look practically white but don't feel they are, or just feel that culturally they are more Portugese than African etc. It's complicated. I certainly would never profess to speak for anyone South American, but the few I know prefer 'Latina' or 'Woman of colour' others just go with 'Black' It's personal choice. This also applies to hispanic peoples in America.

The term 'person/people of colour' may also be used by people who are Asian. This is because they still face discrimination due to their skin colour, but they do not identify as black.

So the reason there needs to be more than one terminology is

1. Coloured is associated with segregation and racism from the past

2. because it is entirely possible to have some black heritage or be black but actually look white although you are not

3. Other non-european peoples who are not black can face discrimination for not being white european either.

Amber Rudd should really have known that no one uses the term 'coloured' anymore. She really should. No ones uses 'Half-caste' anymore and if you heard someone use it you'd rightly think I reckon she hangs around with people who use it and slipped up. For me whether it was racist or not depends on her intention.

“@ElizabethMainwaring

After quencher's contribution, I'm unexpectedly on Bertrand's side.“

I could “peak coloured” you very easily if I scraped round the barrel of my memory and dragged out many similar masterpieces. Im my youth they were usually accompanied by an oh so hilarious cartoon drawing of a black person. Faux naïf words of wisdom like this were common- illustrating the innocent child like qualities of black people. That is- when they weren’t being rampantly, dangerously sexual and a threat to decent white women.

Honestly, it's a minefield. The whole thing!

I was born in the 80s and would probably use the terms "Black", "white" or "Asian" if I had to describe how someone looks but I'll be honest I'd steer clear of that subject as much as possible through fear of offending someone. It's crazy.

It's similar to sexual orientation. I always thought "queer" was offensive but I keep seeing this come back into our language. I would never ever use that term ever, would feel uncomfy. I literally don't know when to use that term, am I even allowed as a straight female?!

Where will the madness end... do we stop using "ginger" as that has been used lots in the past in a nasty context. Should we instead use "red head"?

Off piste, but does anyone remembet singing 'The board is black, the chalk is white, together we learn to read and write' followed by 'the page is white, the ink is black.....'

Primary school days

When I was at primary school we sang a song in assembly (semi-religious): "over the seas there are little brown children..." I kid you not.

“Honestly, it's a minefield. The whole thing!”

It really, really isn’t.

And to make matters even worse, the school was very mixed culturally. And this was in the UK.

Bertrand why the hell do so Many people get it unintentionally wrong then? I'm an educated modern woman and I'm confused!