Amber Rudd

[sue51]

I'm seeking to understand the differences between the terms “coloured women” and “women of colour”. They sound intrinsically similar but they may well be different, and a web search didn’t help in defining the difference.

The first term was used by Amber Rudd yesterday, and she quickly apologised as it had caused offence, but was still under criticism in the main national news. If a term is offensive then it’s right that it isn’t used, and where it has been used that should be the subject of an apology.

However, the term “women of colour” was used on Radio 4 this morning, and a review of the play Richard II at the Sam Wannamaker Playhouse by the Guardian’s Michael Billington prominently used the term “women of colour”, and one would have thought, given the Guardian’s credentials, that the term would not be used if it was likely to cause offence.

So, and asked in all sincerity, can anyone explain the difference between these two terms, and why one is deemed to be offensive while the other is apparently not? I would be mortified if I used a term which caused offence to someone but am genuinely curious about the difference in this case.

Alsohuman
@facsicle, let me know what evidence you want. Surely the memories of several dozen women, including @BigChoc is good enough. Unless you think we’re all lying, of course.

Retrofit argument/evidence, human, given that at the start of the thread, when your opinion was not based on the subsequent posts of others, you said this:

It was the polite term when I was growing up and describing someone as black was considered insulting and rude.

It should be simple enough for you to explain who considered it the polite term - but you can't. You appear to equate numbers of people using an expression with acceptability - they really are not the same thing.

I can't see that BigChoc has condoned the historic use of the term, even though she is understanding of Rudd and others.

I’m just so surprised she didn’t know it was an offensive term. She clearly does live in a white Tory bubble.

Haven't read the whole thread, but Amber Rudd's partner is Kwasi Kwarteng.

“Really? Then have the personal courage to say - in terms - that BigChocFrenzy is guilty of casual racism”

I think BigChocFrenzy is mistaken. She is perfectly at liberty, of course, to respond to casual racism directed to her personally however she likes. I do not think her approach is helpful in societal or political terms.

It should be simple enough for you to explain who considered it the polite term - but you can't. You appear to equate numbers of people using an expression with acceptability - they really are not the same thing

This from fascicle really stands out for me. Can anybody say whether the black oriole to whom they referred to as coloured agreed that it was the polite term?
I am genuinely interested. I know a previous poster said kids at her school didn’t care about being called black or coloured in the 80’s. I am surprised by this but ok. That’s the only reference to a real black/Asian person so far. Anyone else?

Faff what’s the question??

@fascicle, my parents taught me it was the polite term to use, I don’t know who taught them that and, without a ouija board, I can’t ask them. I was brought up in a city with a large, predominantly Polish and Italian, immigrant population and I was five before I ever saw a person of colour. That may well have been when I was told that it was rude to refer to someone as black.

I’m at a loss to offer you any evidence other than anecdotal, much as I’d like to.

Heron
The question is did the black people you referred to as coloured agree with you that it was the polite word to use to describe them?

She did know it mattered, faff. That’s why she apologised. Question is whether fact she said it all is sufficient to disqualify her for her role. I say not. Or if it is, then in consistency, Diane Abbott surely has to say that Corbyn also must step down, after his support for the Jewish banker mural, the wreath, the English irony .... hell, I could go on all day ...

Wow @Bertrand, you think a black woman is mistaken? Seriously? The arrogance of that takes my breath away.

Ok Alsohuman. So when you used the word coloured you must have at some point used the word in front of black/Asian people. Did they agree with you that it was the polite word?

Sorry? Do I have to agree with her because she is black?

I have not ever used the word so I wouldn’t know.
This is again why I take exception to your generalisations and possibly due to not reading the full thread-all strands. There’s been some good stuff on here. And some crap.

I don’t ever remember having that discussion nor can I remember when I became aware that it was unacceptable. Does it matter? I now use the appropriate terminology and will continue to do so until it changes again as I have no doubt it will.

Heron I’m not asking you specifically. I’m asking the people who do use the word

In fact I want to state very clearly that I HAVE NEVER USED THE WORD AND HAVE ALWAYS (50) kKNOWN NOT TO AN UNDERSTOOD THAT IT IS RACIST Think faff just suggested I had in a way Or it could be read to suggest I have called people that. Bloody hell !

Cross post . Faff got it. Was really upset ! whew

As usual some people are offended by this and some black people like myself are not.

I personally think what she had to say was more important than her use of the word coloured.

There is no black group-think

Oh do calm down Heron

Oops cross posted with your cross post Heron

Actually @faff, you’re asking people who used it in the past and no longer use it.

I’m the same age as Amber Rudd. My parents in the 1970s used the term ‘coloured’ instead of ‘black’ to describe people from the Caribbean or Africa because they believed it was more polite. They would now be in their late 80s if alive.

I used that term when I was at school. There were still racists quite evident even on TV, who used the N word and even coon as well as the P word.

Once I went to university in the early 1980s, coloured was most definitely not acceptable terminology. I understood that black was much preferred or Asian if talking about people from Pakistan, India or Bangladesh.

That is my memory of how the language moved on. Does that sound familiar to others in their mid fifties? African American became more in use in the US and I can remember GW Bush using it to describe a black person who wasn’t American (!) but we still used black in the UK. POC seem new to me and the fact that it’s so similar to the word ‘coloured’ makes me uncomfortable to use it.

So Amber Rudd should definitely have known better.

Yes Also I suppose I am. What of it?
It’s the insistence on it having been a polite term. I am interested to know if black people felt the same way? I wasn’t even born then so don’t know.

Maybe you should just accept the word of people who were there. Lots of things have changed since before you were born, do you doubt people’s word about them too?