Amber Rudd

[sue51]

I'm seeking to understand the differences between the terms “coloured women” and “women of colour”. They sound intrinsically similar but they may well be different, and a web search didn’t help in defining the difference.

The first term was used by Amber Rudd yesterday, and she quickly apologised as it had caused offence, but was still under criticism in the main national news. If a term is offensive then it’s right that it isn’t used, and where it has been used that should be the subject of an apology.

However, the term “women of colour” was used on Radio 4 this morning, and a review of the play Richard II at the Sam Wannamaker Playhouse by the Guardian’s Michael Billington prominently used the term “women of colour”, and one would have thought, given the Guardian’s credentials, that the term would not be used if it was likely to cause offence.

So, and asked in all sincerity, can anyone explain the difference between these two terms, and why one is deemed to be offensive while the other is apparently not? I would be mortified if I used a term which caused offence to someone but am genuinely curious about the difference in this case.

Soon none of us will be able to open our mouths for fear of upsetting someone. I dread the future.

BigChoc... a perfect reply, couldn't agree more

“Soon none of us will be able to open our mouths for fear of upsetting someone. I dread the future.”

Yep. PC gorn maaaad, innit?

“It'll be quite a while before another Tory dares express sympathy for MPs across the aisle who experience tacism
That's a backward step in tackling the bitter political divide we have“

Really? This incident would stop Tories calling out racism? Blimey.

Are there so many white people defending her making this mistake because it’s a mistake they could imagine making themselves? Because that’s quite telling.

I think Amber Rudd's involvement and some of the actions relating to the Windrush scandal are worse, but do not defend her use of a term used by the South African apartheid regimes. At least she apologised quickly. Recognising being in the wrong, unlike some Tories with Islamophonia and the Labour Party with anti-semitism.

Alsohuman
@gamerwidow, this thread has unanimously condemned casual racism

Actually, human, you have failed to condemn one form of racism by persistently claiming that historic use of the term 'coloured' was acceptable despite being unable to provide any evidence that it was.

DH and I both grew up with ‘coloured’ being the polite term, both mid-40s, different counties in the SE. Somehow it has passed DH by, despite him being very widely educated, that it is no longer acceptable and I have to occasionally remind him (though he might now remember, thanks to Ms Rudd!).

Yep same here. I have previously told DH that it’s unacceptable now but I think he thought I was being silly, I think he may remember now though.

Didn’t stop him asking me how on earth people are supposed to know when it changes? He has a point, I think I only realised after seeing a thread on here many years ago. I was quite surprised initially as I had no idea.

Can I ask a question? Working in the recruitment world and the effects of stereotypes. Is the grouping of people of colour or BAME making it harder for young black men having to compete against their stereotypes and the conscious or unconscious bias of the room (Not necessarily all white). Companies hit their targets and look inclusive but a candidate with what appears to be a Chinese heritage will be asked and treated differently than a black man.

I find it disappointing that, in the furore over the word Amber Rudd used, the important message about women being subjected to abuse and harrassment online has been completely overshadowed

I agree. All she needed was a reminder. I suspect Amber has elderly relatives who still use that term, a lot of elderly white people still do, and thus she came out with it.

I also think in discussions of racism intention matters. Personally if it's not purposefully intended I don't take offence.

I do find it absolutely incredible that the defence of casual racism is the hill people are prepared to die on.

And I hate lazy, pusillanimous, casual snidery. Who, exactly, do you think is defending casual racism and, moreover, according to your figure of speech, defending it to the death? Name names.

“Who, exactly, do you think is defending casual racism“

Everyone on this thread who says that a senior politician with extensive media training should be excused for using a term for black people that has been unacceptable for more than 20 years. That’s who.

In other words, BetrandRussell, anyone who disagrees with you? How utterly absurd.

“In other words, BetrandRussell, anyone who disagrees with you? How utterly absurd.“

Do you think it was OK/excusable for a person in her position to use a word for black people that has been unacceptable for at least 20 years?

Please answer the question, BetrandRussell. Do you think all the people who disagree with you on this thread - including a BAME poster who would “give [Rudd] a pass on this one” - are guilty of casual racism?

I answered at 11.16.

Really? Then have the personal courage to say - in terms - that BigChocFrenzy is guilty of casual racism.

There’s no point. Rudd’s a posh Tory so bert and her ilk will bash her whether she guves them cause or not.
The term was wrong. She realised quickly and apologised. No one is going to be able to psychoanalyse the woman and conclude whether her use of the term was a throwback to a non PC childhood or the result of deep seated virulent racism. Personally I think the former is the mire credible explanation.
I also think no one who maintains membership of the Labour Party is in a position to be criticising anyone for racism, but that’s a whole other thread.

@facsicle, let me know what evidence you want. Surely the memories of several dozen women, including @BigChoc is good enough. Unless you think we’re all lying, of course.

Oh wah wah wah how will the white people know what racist words not to use.
Oh the desperate handwringing. We just didn’t know coloured isn’t the right word. Woe is us.
Give me a fucking break.
This is why BAME people cannot be fucking arsed to talk about racism most of the time. This absolute bollocks of oooh I grew up in the fricking back of beyond in the hills and so cannot possibly be expected to know that 40 years ago (40 fucking years. That’s the 80’s) it was pretty unanimously agreed upon that using the fucking word coloured was not on.
And yet white women in their 40’s will still look faux surprised and say but but I thought coloured was the POLITE terminology.
Yeh course you did.

You would call a black persons coloured to their face in 2019??

Benedict Cumberbatch being polite...so he will teach his child in 2019 that coloured is polite will he because that’s what he grew up with.

And then of course all the people moaning about how they just can’t say anything anymore for fear of being called racist. Oh poor you. Yeh poor poor you.

Hey try being not white

Yes, well that really advanced your cause. Well done.

Faff, I don’t think anyone is seriously disputing that the word shouldn’t be used. The question is what conclusions should we draw about someone who does use it, realises mistake and apologises, having been brought up in an era when many did use it (which my recollection certainly bears out).

Piss off alsohuman. Don’t other me. I don’t have a ‘cause’ just sick of the same old crap on MN when it comes to race. These conversations are always always about people making themselves feel better about themselves and never once trying to acknowledge or understand a BAME viewpoint.

The conclusion I draw is that Amber Rudd has no understanding about racism/black people/BAME lives whatsoever.

She has no clue about what is and isn’t acceptable. And she doesn’t realise that words matter. She should. She’s a senior politician talking about race. She needs to know words matter. Maybe your everywoman on the street can use the ‘polite’ excuse but she can’t because of who she is. She should know better.

I don’t care beyond that. Nothings going to happen. I don’t want her strung up or anything. I’m not going to go on an on about it.

Faff agree with all wxceotnsweeping and inaccurate generalisations about this thread. Read it - loads of us have done nothing of the sort you ascribe to us. Makes me angry. Ffs

At no point have I said I think it is ok now, only that it absolutely was ok where I was growing up in the 70s.

Linguistically though, it is harder to construct a sentence (for me, at least) when using 'people of colour' or similar phrase, as placing an adjective before a noun flows more easily. Therefore, I can understand how someone could unintentionally cause offence by misphrasing, when under pressure to provide a response.

I am far from liking the Tories, but none of us are perfect, we all make occasional mistakes. The marker should be in how we respond to it when we realise our error. She didn't hang around in acknowledging her mistake. Let he who is without sin cast the first stone etc.