AIBU or is this a MAJOR safeguarding issue?

[Whatthefudgeisthis]

NC for this,

I’ve been absolutely stunned at the ignorance shown by the organisers with this one! A naturist night at the water park 😱 this place is designed for kids entertainment, it’s basically loads of water slides a wave pool and play area etc
Who in their right mind would take a child to such an event. Obviously I’m not shooting down naturists, each to their own, but this is an event that ANYONE can attend. Known paedophiles have attended these events, with one saying that he can’t even swim. What the actual fuck is going on? Who thought this one up?
If adults want to swim naked that’s their call, but why open the event to children too?

I’m pretty sure I’m not the one missing the blindingly obvious here, but I’m so amazed at the stupidity I had to share and maybe raise some awareness.

www.stokesentinel.co.uk/whats-on/family-nude-swimming-session-coming-2589946

These events are being held across the country, so there’s possibly one near you.

Pretty sure risk assessments are not based on tiny fragments lifted out of context from whole conversations.

Yes, logical what ifs and imagined events.

My instinct was not to answer the question based on the people asking it and how they have interacted on this thread so far. My instinct told me they may be pre-judged against naturism and therefore using the question for their own gain.

Direct quote "all the young infant and toddler children that are forced to partake in it?" = misjudgement and huge misunderstanding of naturism.

Therefore my instinct was useful...

This is getting petty and therefore I'm going to leave it there, content with my lifestyle choices and my lovely family and more than happy that I have been able to honestly answer any queries and misconceptions around naturism, and have some genuine discussions with other users. I value exchange of information and I have learned a lot.

xxx

My 10 year old has said - I think these people have their hearts in the right place but theres other children that might need it (protecting) more. My 12 year old - everybody is talking about the children but no one has asked me

This is the sort of thing a child of 10 or 12 would say, and then decide later that they did not mean it. That would be normal. You cannot act based on what your 10 year old and 12 year old are saying. The likelihood that they are saying what you want to hear is very very high.
I think you are playing with fire here. The fact that you are quoting your children means you still do not accept that these are inappropriate choices for their ages.

On the back of this, we could decide to cut naturism out of our lives - but what would that teach my children? That those with no experience of naturism know better than what our own experience is telling us? That those who seek to ban something must know better than us?

Well, again (and again and again) no one has talked about banning naturalism or said you shouldn't go to naturism events. What has been said is that it is not appropriate for children to be naked around adults. And so what you could say to your children is, if you realise this or if you are required to change your practice by law at some point, " we thought it was okay but we decided/it was felt that for the common and greater good, children needed to be protected by not being naked around strangers...."

That we should immediately stop what we are doing when people oppose us no... that you should reflect on what has been said, and take on board valid points.

I would much rather teach them to discuss and work things though logically, sensitively and carefully you can discuss and work things through, sensitively and carefully, with us now - what do you think about, for example:

• children are not able to make the choices you are asking them to make - they simply cannot make the choices you are asking them to make - and what children say and think as children changes as they get older
• the pants rule is not what you thought it was - you have been given some important info on the thread - you said you thought it was just to do with grooming and which adults saw private parts and people have explained that it is wider than that - as per previous posts
• you have a man in your naturalist commune who has made some disturbing comments online - what do you think about that?

As I said above, I am hoping that the law changes to prohibit children from being naked at events. This happening will not destroy your naturism experience but it will protect children.

If you ever, ever think that in fact you have been manipulated by other people, and that you made the wrong decisions about your dc, please do come back to mumsnet for support, because the support will be here. It has been very brave of you to keep coming back and it may be that in weeks or months you do start to question things.

*community

"You cannot act based on what your 10 year old and 12 year old are saying"

I never said I was acting on it - I think it's important to listen to and value what our children are saying to us. And to respect that they have a valid opinion, regardless of what it is. They will have come to that for a reason. And when something is about them, which this is, I like to talk to them about it. Personally, I think children are capable of a lot more reasoned thought than adults give them credit for. And I like to think they can contribute to family discussions. I'm slightly unnerved thinking that others don't see children as valid contributors...

"Well, again (and again and again) no one has talked about banning naturalism or said you shouldn't go to naturism events. What has been said is that it is not appropriate for children to be naked around adults. And so what you could say to your children is, if you realise this or if you are required to change your practice by law at some point, " we thought it was okay but we decided/it was felt that for the common and greater good, children needed to be protected by not being naked around strangers...."

What has been said about naturism being inappropriate for children is opinion (from non-naturists). I don't hold to that, it is not my opinion, therefore I am not going to talk to them about the greater good etc because that is not my opinion and it has not been deemed so by anybody (other than yourself and some others). Therefore I'm not going to cut naturism out of our lives because a few people didn't understand it and protested against it. And I wouldn't model to my children not to stand up for something that I believe in.

"That we should immediately stop what we are doing when people oppose us no... that you should reflect on what has been said, and take on board valid points"

Yep, I am doing... I'm not rolling over and agreeing, which I'm sensing is what you'd like me to do. But I am taking on board and reflecting and using it to contribute to a greater world view.

I would much rather teach them to discuss and work things though logically, sensitively and carefully you can discuss and work things through, sensitively and carefully, with us now - what do you think about, for example:

• children are not able to make the choices you are asking them to make - they simply cannot make the choices you are asking them to make - and what children say and think as children changes as they get older
• the pants rule is not what you thought it was - you have been given some important info on the thread - you said you thought it was just to do with grooming and which adults saw private parts and people have explained that it is wider than that - as per previous posts
• you have a man in your naturalist commune who has made some disturbing comments online - what do you think about that?

I've discussed all this in previous posts with various people...

"As I said above, I am hoping that the law changes to prohibit children from being naked at events. This happening will not destroy your naturism experience but it will protect children."

Yes it will destroy our naturism experience, because we go to events as a family.... We're off on holiday soon. Our children can't wait. The complex is naturist and there's a naturist beach. We shall put clothes on to explore the local villages and area that are non-naturist.

You're allowed to hope the law changes, I'm allowed to hope it doesn't. Doesn't make either one of us right, it just means that there's a lot at stake for us as a family and that is huge for us...

"If you ever, ever think that in fact you have been manipulated by other people, and that you made the wrong decisions about your dc, please do come back to Mumsnet for support"

Thanks for your kind, if slightly patronising offer, that confirms to me, again, that people have preconceived views of naturism and are making huge judgements about me as a mother. Not sure who I might have been manipulated by, or which wrong decisions you personally feel I have made. If you really were here to support other mothers, perhaps you would be interacting with me differently, not least accepting that others have different views to you.

I'm astonished to be honest by this post to be honest.

The complex is naturist and there's a naturist beach

There are so many images of naked children at naturist beaches online, please think carefully, it’s incredibly easy to hide a micro camera.

I've discussed all this in previous posts with various people...

No, you haven't.

If you really were here to support other mothers, perhaps you would be interacting with me differently, not least accepting that others have different views to you

“Prude” “brainwashed” “hysterical” ..and now the usual crap about mothers not behaving as we should.

"There are so many images of naked children at naturist beaches online, please think carefully, it’s incredibly easy to hide a micro camera"

The naturist beaches we go to our surveilled covertly. Have you spent time on such a beach?
Always the tone of gentle chastisement and 'poor naive mother'.

Who is prude, hysterical and brainwashed, I'm not following...

@itwasntpreeclampsyia...

Um, yep I have, just read back. Loads of discussions, even with yourself, about choices and the NSPCC pants rule and ordinarydad etc etc.

Further to that, I'm happy to accept we have different views on naturism and go about our lives from here on in, with no malice or assuming one of us is more right than the other, just living life as we see fit with our families - are you?

Have you spent time on such a beach?

Nope, a quick google image search throws up a rather surprising amount photographs of children on such beaches, photos that you can tell have been taken from a distance covertly.

Who is prude, hysterical and brainwashed, I'm not following

Probably because you’ve refused to read the whole thread.

Oh, and I’ve never thought you naïve, far from it infact.

"Oh, and I’ve never thought you naïve, far from it infact"

My mistake, apologies. Just wondered why you felt the need to warn me about the beaches. I've been very content in ten years... Sadly I imagine some are susceptible to covert camera operators. The ones we use are private and managed...

What part would help me understand about your prude, hysterical and brainwashed comment? I can't work out what your meaning is? Sorry...

My mistake, apologies. Just wondered why you felt the need to warn me about the beaches

Was more to warn any lurkers really, many people don’t realise just how small and easy some cameras are to hide. Wouldn’t want them thinking that there isn’t a risk of children being filmed rather easily.

What part would help me understand about your prude, hysterical and brainwashed comment? I can't work out what your meaning is?

Like I said, read the thread .

xxxxxxxxxxx

OP, what about when your kids are pre-teens/teens and want to do things without you, like go to town, activity clubs, holiday camps, friends' houses etc? Will you let them have independence or will you watch them "like a hawk" until they are 18 just because there may be paedos lurking?

I have one pre teen child with autism, she goes nowhere without me. The other two are a lot younger, I would have to weigh that up when they’re old enough. My friends kids seemed to get adult independence as soon as they turned 11, they go everywhere and do everything. They’re living for social media, they’re sexting and drinking etc, they’re too young in my opinion.
That’s their choice, but I won’t be doing that with my own. It will be gradual independence until they reach adulthood.
That’s basic parenting. So yeah, they’ll do things and go places. I’ll take them travelling etc they’ll play in playgrounds but yeah I’ll watch them like a hawk and I’m not apologising for that. Maybe if more parents bothered to parent, fewer children would be abused.

@claireluna5

I am not trying to be rude, but my impression is that you have not discussed anything, you have dismissed everything people have advised you about (wider ramifications of PANTS rules, boundaries, age appropriate choices), in that you didn't respond to what had been said, you just said that you were happy with how your family did things. No discussion or debate about the various issues raised. Do you disagree with my/our interpretation of wider ramifications of PANTS rules, boundaries, age appropriate choices? I don't know because there wasn't discussion. I am not going to open it up again though, I have done my letter to the NSPCC, I was just responding to your post.

Further to that, I'm happy to accept we have different views on naturism and go about our lives from here on in, with no malice or assuming one of us is more right than the other, just living life as we see fit with our families - are you?

There is worry on my part, not malice. In all honestly i find it horrifying that pre teens would be naked at events, as well as horrifying that younger children would be, but it isn't for me to dictate and so I have done a letter to the NSPCC. I cannot see why naturists cannot enjoy events together with dc wearing costumes.

I want to urge you to read through the thread again in a week or so after it finishes, but you may find that patronising too.

I have a random question for you - off topic of this thread - I made the mistake of googling naturalism and most of the women were totally shaved down below - is that BN etiquette?

@claireluna5 I have just gone back and read some posts and you have replied to comments made, what I meant was that the issues weren't discussed, it was more that you had said you believed in naturism and non naturists didn't understand (unless I have misunderstood that).

I'm slightly unnerved thinking that others don't see children as valid contributors... children are most certainly valid contributors but there is a line - for example, if my young child wanted to try alcohol I would validate his want, but say no. Same if they wanted to try smoking. For a slightly older child I would still intervene if I think that guidance is needed. It is a sliding scale. I also remember saying things at the age of 10 or 12 which I thought my mother wanted to hear which I didn't mean.

Please ignore my last random question if it offends, I didn't intend to offend, i was just interested.

For anyone who is interested - I wrote to the RSPCC to ask them how they can advocate child naturism when it 1. Goes against fundamental safe guards in regards to children being exposed to nudity and 2. Goes against informed consent of the child in regards to being naked in public. Their reply was a generic link to “safeguarding in sport” which held no relevance to child naturism what so ever and they hoped I would find this information useful - I really did not and repeated my questions to them. I have not yet had a reply and I am not optimistic about receiving one. The only way - like all issues - that this concern will be properly heard is through a petition against child naturism, taken to parliament. I will always be stunned by this safeguarding loophole and how it has been able to occur.

The RSPCC is probably as useless as the bloody RSPCA.

I have changed my name mid thread.

I have contacted NSPCC and they confirmed that they had not endorsed the Naked Swims or other events and had not worked with British Naturalism re safeguarding (BN had used one of their website tools), and most certainly did not reassure me that all was fine and I was just a prude as per one of @claireluna5's posts.

What the next step is I do not know but the more people who contact them with concerns the better.

"I am not trying to be rude, but my impression is that you have not discussed anything, you have dismissed everything people have advised you about (wider ramifications of PANTS rules, boundaries, age appropriate choices), in that you didn't respond to what had been said, you just said that you were happy with how your family did things. No discussion or debate about the various issues raised. Do you disagree with my/our interpretation of wider ramifications of PANTS rules, boundaries, age appropriate choices? I don't know because there wasn't discussion. I am not going to open it up again though, I have done my letter to the NSPCC, I was just responding to your post"

Hello again,

You mention about advice, but, with respect, I didn't come here for advice. I know that is often how Mumsnet is useful. But, I came as the OP was about an event I attended and I'm aware that a lot of people probably hadn't come across naturism before and may find it useful to interact with someone who is a naturist mother. So it still stands that I am happy with how my family does things.

I believe the NSPCC does amazing work and it is great to have things like the PANTS campaign to help parents talk to their children. It isn't cancelled out just because we are naturists. But neither is it the authority or bible on these things. I prefer to have an approach that incorporates all sorts of ways of talking to children, from different sources, not just one, as well as using my own experiences and instincts.

I totally agree with you about parenting being a sliding scale - that's how we do things too.

"I have a random question for you - off topic of this thread - I made the mistake of googling naturalism and most of the women were totally shaved down below - is that BN etiquette?"

I wasn't at all offended by your question. Just for clarity naturalist and naturist are often mixed up - easily done! But I know you mean naturist. There is no etiquette around pubic hair - how anyone chooses to shave/wax or not is totally up to them.

Also, whilst British Naturism is an organisation, it is one of several in the UK. And you don't have to be a member of any of them to be a naturist. It's just that some people choose to so that they can connect with others and find out about events etc.

I think I said before, if there are things BN can improve on, that can only be a good thing. I believe a lot of positivity can come of all this as a result. Which is why I don't believe seeking to ban something as a knee jerk reaction is the way forward with this...

I'm not sure if there has been a mix up but I have never used the word prude to refer to you... I think you made a comment where you said "I don't care if it makes me a prude" and I actually said "I don't think it makes you anything".

Maybe if more parents bothered to parent, fewer children would be abused.

I’m sorry @Whatthefudgeisthis but this is totally out of line.
I don’t care what you think about naturism etc... but saying that children are abused because parents don’t parent them? Really?
Wouod you dare saying that to a parent whose child has been abused/raped by a very good family friend, or a family member (like n uncle?), someone they fully trusted? Because that’s what is usually happening. Children are rarely abused or attacked by strangers or because they have been to naturist swimming session. They are abused by Pepe who live under their roof. By people who are closed to them.
Tbh I find that comment much more unacceptable than anything else on this thread.

@claireluna5 I didn't quote what you had said to me on the thread, I was referring to the gist of your posts and the posts of other naturalists (or naturists) saying that NSPCC would not have a problem with the naked swims, and that NSPCC have worked with the organisers re safeguarding etc.

Which it turns out is not the case.

Which is the point.