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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

AIBU or is this a MAJOR safeguarding issue?

744 replies

Whatthefudgeisthis · 08/03/2019 03:40

NC for this,

I’ve been absolutely stunned at the ignorance shown by the organisers with this one! A naturist night at the water park 😱 this place is designed for kids entertainment, it’s basically loads of water slides a wave pool and play area etc
Who in their right mind would take a child to such an event. Obviously I’m not shooting down naturists, each to their own, but this is an event that ANYONE can attend. Known paedophiles have attended these events, with one saying that he can’t even swim. What the actual fuck is going on? Who thought this one up?
If adults want to swim naked that’s their call, but why open the event to children too?

I’m pretty sure I’m not the one missing the blindingly obvious here, but I’m so amazed at the stupidity I had to share and maybe raise some awareness.

www.stokesentinel.co.uk/whats-on/family-nude-swimming-session-coming-2589946

These events are being held across the country, so there’s possibly one near you.

OP posts:
saxatablesalt · 12/03/2019 11:51

I think it's completely weird. I don't really care if that makes me a prude.

I still don't get the POINT. Why is it enjoyable meeting up with a group of strangers to all be naked together?

Claireluna5 · 12/03/2019 12:05

"I think it's completely weird. I don't really care if that makes me a prude".

I don't think it 'makes you anything'. It's ok to see something else as weird and not fancy it yourself...

"I still don't get the POINT. Why is it enjoyable meeting up with a group of strangers to all be naked together?"

I imagine every naturist will have their own story. Mine is further back on the thread and talks about discovering a naturist beach when our children were little and finding it really relaxing and easy and wondering why we'd never come across anything like it. Just little things as well - I didn't have to jiggle around under a towel trying not to flash 'unacceptable' parts of my body whilst trying to get changed. Naturists just get changed or whatever, they aren't bothered what anyone else is doing. It's obviously bigger than that, but that's a small example...

The one thing about naturism is that you quickly realise - no one cares what you look like and no one is actually expressly looking. It's relaxing to be without clothes in an environment where its perfectly accepted and actually, pretty much a non-event.

Naturism is the practice of going without clothes. Naturists are comfortable with nudity. It makes sense to be with other people who are comfortable with nudity. (It wouldn't be fair to be naturist in front of anyone who wasn't comfortable with it).

On a deeper level, I enjoy being free from clothes, particularly whilst swimming or sunbathing for example.

My husband very rarely wears clothes at home when there is only us around. He finds it the ultimate in relaxation to not be bound up in clothes - for him, it's a sense of being free and relaxed.

Some naturists practice naturism moreso on holidays abroad, others join clubs, others just go to swims - there's a variety of ways of enjoying naturism.

Therefore, when naturists get together we are starting with a common ground. From that, we can just enjoy each other's company, much as getting together with any group of people who have something in common.

Whatthefudgeisthis · 12/03/2019 12:18

The one thing about naturism is that you quickly realise - no one cares what you look like and no one is actually expressly looking

You don’t know who is and isn’t looking. You’re assuming/hoping.

OP posts:
Claireluna5 · 12/03/2019 12:43

"You don’t know who is and isn’t looking. You’re assuming/hoping"

Do you always know who is looking at you/your children? Are you hoping/assuming that if they are it is always 'above board'?

An employee at my children's school was caught with children's underwear and gym shorts in his possession. It is highly like he looked at children in his care in a certain way - including my children and/or their friends. If he hadn't have been caught this would have continued. Once he was caught this was dealt with and I had to trust the process. My children carried on at the school and I have to trust other adults in all sorts of ways all the time. I trust the processes/safeguarding in place until I have reason to think otherwise.

As a parent I have never felt uncomfortable in a naturist situation. If I did I would deal with it. I trust the safeguarding and processes in place. If they are improved upon now in light of all this because it is deemed they need to be, all the better. I have the added benefit of being with my children at naturist events

Meandmetoo · 12/03/2019 12:52

"Another question to ask is maybe why do parents encourage their children to cover up when they get to a certain age, within their family environment at home? Surely this is personal to each family if they choose to expressly encourage children at home to be 'covered up'? Just because a family chooses not to, does not mean anything other than a family that is comfortable around each other if they happen to be naked at any point. As a naturist family we don't all walk around naked all the time. But if I walk to the bathroom across the landing naked and my children see me, its no biggie, same as if they do that. We shower with the bathroom door open, chat to each other whilst we shower, I sleep naked, sometimes my children do, we wander around half dressed in the morning etc etc. This to us as a family is very normal..."

I don't think that is specific to a naturist family. We do all those things at home too.

There is a middle ground for children between "cover up all the time" and "be naturists with us"......isn't there? Confused

saxatablesalt · 12/03/2019 12:54

ut if I walk to the bathroom across the landing naked and my children see me, its no biggie, same as if they do that. We shower with the bathroom door open, chat to each other whilst we shower, I sleep naked, sometimes my children do, we wander around half dressed in the morning etc etc. This to us as a family is very normal

We do all that too and we aren't "naturists". I mean my son is three. I doubt he would appreciate his mother showering with the door open when he's sixteen.

Whatthefudgeisthis · 12/03/2019 13:25

Do you always know who is looking at you/your children? Are you hoping/assuming that if they are it is always 'above board'?

I pray it’s above board, but I’m realistic. I don’t let them out of my sight, they don’t use social media, there are no photos of them online. Before I started homeschooling, school did not have my permission to take photos of my eldest etc. When I have caught someone looking at them, believe me, I haven’t turned a blind eye. I’m a perverts worst nightmare.
There’s nothing I wouldn’t do to protect my children. I watch them and the surrounding areas like a hawk. I trust nobody! In this day and age, nobody can be trusted where my children are concerned.
No way on this earth would I want my children near someone like Ordinarydad. He would not have access to them. His views alarm me.
I wouldn’t allow them to attend a swim session such as the one at waterworld. The amount of single men I saw in the video of the Blackpool event, I wouldn’t want to go in there fully dressed!!!
I’m keen to see some figures on the adult to child ratios. There seemed far to many single adults, and for an event advertised for families, it should not happen.

So are you ready to answer? Would you let your children go to an event with ordinarydad present?

OP posts:
Handsoffmysweets · 12/03/2019 13:27

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Happyspud · 12/03/2019 13:28

Can’t you just recognise that although you can’t quite comprehend it, (actual) naturists simply see the body differently and are not brainwashed into thinking it needs covering up. It’s a completely different mindset, not in the context of wearing clothes or not, it’s independent of that.

Handsoffmysweets · 12/03/2019 13:29

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Bobaboutwhat · 12/03/2019 13:39

Happyspud can’t YOU just recognise that people on this thread are NOT saying anything against naturism - it is the concern that paedophiles will take advantage of naturism.

Jubba · 12/03/2019 13:48

@whatthefudgeisthis

So you don’t go to the beach with your kids. Your kids don’t go to school

You even go outside with your kids? Or does air frighten you?

You will rub your severe paranoia off on your children. Not good

Hotwaterbottleweather · 12/03/2019 13:50

The thread has moved on quite a bit since I posted and I haven't read the last few replies, but I wanted to say a huge thank you to the lovely comments with support for me Flowers

I've felt so uneasy reading this thread, I still do remember the feelings of being there and although there were only those two experiences at the actual club, I do still look back and cringe at the memory of how many people saw me and my sister naked. I feel we were so vulnerable.

I didn't mention either that within the images my dad went to prison for there were some of me too, taken at the naturist clubs :( I know because I found them. I feel so violated and ashamed. So for ordinarydad to say what he said about "No harm in looking" or words to that effect, I am deeply disturbed. There very much IS harm in looking and those other poor children in the images are just as important as me and I feel equally upset for them too.

So although the worst incidents that happened to me and my sister occurred outside of that environment, they 100% wouldn't have happened if my dad had never taken us to them.
I was also abused as a child by a family member - nothing to do with naturism, so I'm not completely skewed in my thinking and I do realise there are monsters everywhere.

ClaireLuna I do admire your willingness to answer some questions on here, but I do think you are quite naive about your children's feelings - yes they may like it NOW - so did me and my sister and we in fact begged to go when our mum didn't want us to, but looking back I feel sick at the thought.

Whatthefudgeisthis · 12/03/2019 13:57

I go to the beach. They’re not running around naked. They’re close to me and I keep a close eye on them. That’s parenting? Not paranoia.

Plenty of people home educate their kids. I’m not satisfied with the education received in mainstream school.

Yes we go outside. Quite often, homeschooling gives me the freedom to do that. What I don’t do is stick them in a room with naked men. Or a large group of adults in general.

OP posts:
Bobaboutwhat · 12/03/2019 14:07

Oh Hotwaterbottleweather this is just horrible Sad
Once again your post highlights how a child’s compliance towards their parents is so strong and it is so easy to manipulate an idea into “their” choice. If a child from naturis parents is asked if they feel comfortable being naked in front of others in public, they are already conditioned to say yes, it is not an age-appropriate question to ask in the slightest.

itwasntpreeclampsia · 12/03/2019 14:34

@claireluna5 you mentioned the overlap with parenting choices. Sometimes the law steps in and overrides parental discretion and that is what I think should happen here, after a proper review. Because of what some of the naturists have said on here, because of the inadequate safeguarding provisions, because of what I have read on links to the posts on the BN forum from this thread, many of which seem very self absorbed. Because there is no earthly reason for children to be naked around strangers.

Once he was caught this was dealt with and I had to trust the process actually, no you don't have to blindly trust a process or the safeguarding. It would be better to be vigilant and trust your intuition. There are a very, very large number of people out there who you cannot trust with your children, and you can allow your children a good life and sufficient freedoms AND be very careful about who they spend time with (and whether or not they take their clothes off) at the same time. It doesn't mean trust no one. It means be realistic about the risks and be prepared to NOT just rely on processes.

They have teenage friends too. Again, it's not an issue. They are curious and ask questions, but it's not a source of judgement or weirdness probably because the teenagers don't know exactly what is happening or what the risks are - and if they do they don't know what to say.

Hotwaterbottleweather · 12/03/2019 14:41

Bob you are completely right, children live to please their parents, we were really so little only 8 and my sister was 4 and my parents were in the middle of a horrendous court battle when he started taking us so we already felt caught in the middle of everything. We were inclined to rebel against our mum and our dad was the 'cool' one taking us to this fun environment. I think the forbidden nature of it was what we liked and we saw our mum as raining on our parade when really she was trying to protect us :(

I will say now that I feel we were conditioned (brainwashed?) into thinking we were the normal ones and regular swims were boring and for shy people.

I has left lasting scars for us both and I can tell you now we are both so untrusting of people and protective of our children.

Handsoffmysweets · 12/03/2019 15:31

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Handsoffmysweets · 12/03/2019 15:34

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Handsoffmysweets · 12/03/2019 15:38

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Claireluna5 · 12/03/2019 16:47

@itwasntpreeclamsia

It's possible to trust both safeguarding policies and processes AND your own intuition and vigilance. Both of those together are strong and robust, as much as it is ever possible to be in the society in which we live.

I am sorry that some have sadly experienced otherwise. Thank you to the lady who shared her story - that can't have been easy and it has given me much to reflect on. And I'm sad that your responsible adults at the time weren't able to protect them from that, and that one was actually a perpetrator. Also, that your enjoyment of naturism at the time was tainted by the exploitation of the adults around you as you reflect backwards.

I think we have to be reasonable also and assume that there are children/teens who's enjoyment of naturism hasn't been tainted by exploitation as they reflect backwards. I think we need to cautious of using specific cases (especially historic ones where there was less awareness and education around all of the issues we are talking about) and with all their uniqueness and using them to assess naturism as a whole.

Yes, we can read of cases where adults who were naturists were found to have indecent images that they have downloaded from the internet. Any adult from any walk of life who is found to have such issues is dealt with as soon as it is identified. I think there is probably a trail of how safeguarding has come to reflect a growing awareness of such things, especially as the internet has developed. I imagine BN itself has it's own history of safeguarding as it has progressed.

I still think we need to be cautious of making assumptions anywhere, particularly around single men. I thought it was part of awareness raising that children are more likely to be abused/groomed by someone in their family/close family friend. There is still then a misalignment with the continued look at naturism with regards to single people infiltrating naturism from the outskirts. Again, parents are with their children and parents such as myself are aware of looking out for those specific signs of grooming.

Some of those single men videoed outside the Sandcastle were married...

I will reflect on what I am still hearing from those who are questioning my children's comfort and enjoyment of naturism with us as a family.

I can only share the following in regards to this and with regards to those who feel I have conditioned my children - we have had many discussions as a family in relation to the issue of protesters to naturism. I think this is positive - what others think of naturism, why do they think that, what do you think hearing this, the right to peaceful protest in England, what happens when it is not peaceful, how can we respond to those who don't understand something we do, how can we discuss things sensibly. These are brilliant things to talk about within the family.

When we heard there may be protestors, I discussed this with my children and the reasons behind it. I asked them if they still wanted to attend or if it would make them feel uncomfortable. They both said they still wanted to go. Luckily we approached from a different angle so didn't even get near them but I was risk assessing all the way. Had they have been violent and my children looked uncomfortable or changed their mind we would have walked away.

My 10 year old has said - I think these people have their hearts in the right place but theres other children that might need it (protecting) more.

My 12 year old - everybody is talking about the children but no one has asked me.

I think it is important to respect and listen to our children as part of how think about something.

On the back of this, we could decide to cut naturism out of our lives - but what would that teach my children? That those with no experience of naturism know better than what our own experience is telling us? That those who seek to ban something must know better than us? That we should immediately stop what we are doing when people oppose us. I would much rather teach them to discuss and work things though logically, sensitively and carefully.

I have assessed the risks myself as a parent in terms of the naturist events we go to, campsites, clubs, holidays, beaches. I'm comfortable with what we experience, how things are run, and the general atmosphere and ambience and interactions with those we meet. I am not naive to the fact that some adults may try to gain entry for their own deviant purposes. I am as vigilant as I am anywhere when I am with my children. I haven't yet experienced or seen or heard or intuited anything that would lead me to reconsider that not going at all would be 'safer'. And I will continue to monitor that, as ever, and in the scope of all we do as a family.

Someone mentioned willingness - I am very willing to talk about naturism. I think the fact that it isn't talked about (albeit understandably) is why we have part of the issue we now do - there is still clear misunderstanding around it.

Hotwaterbottleweather · 12/03/2019 16:50

Thank you handsoff I so appreciate that Flowers

I would say that for the vast majority of families attending these clubs, there will be no abuse present. And no abuse at home either. And for many of them no embarrassment as they grow up.

However, there will also be a percentage of children who WILL be abused at these clubs, and in my opinion 'just' looking at naked children for perverse reasons is most definitely abuse. Yes you could say that paedos can look anywhere at kids, but of course a naked one is going to be more appealing - it's so naive to deny this! So it's putting children in a situation where they may be being perved on without their knowledge, or with a feeling of it. Why give them that opportunity?
And no, most children can't make an informed decision about this, me and my sis used to just repeat what we heard from our dad and his buddies: "It's so freeing" "Clothes get in the way" "It's a place you can be yourself" etc but we didn't really take any ownership of what we were doing.

It was when I got to about 11 I started to actually FEEL naked for the first time, I wondered what people thought and tried to hide my body, yet I didn't feel able to tell my dad my worries. And the truth - I didn't want to let him down.
To be fair, when I did say I wanted to stop going he was fine with it and there was no issue. I carried on going but stayed clothed so I was still seeing people nude.

And I was thinking that some people have said the children are safe as they're with family, well not if that family wants to harm them. What if mum or dad are paedos and want to get access to naked children every weekend? How would people know? I believe we should stamp out ways for people with bad intentions to get access to children, and banning under 18s from naturism would be a great start. Even if I was a naturist now I would understand and support this as it's for the greater good and could help save another child from going through the harrowing experience of abuse.

And I will repeat this because I feel strongly about it: Looking (with a sexual interest) IS abuse.

Claireluna5 · 12/03/2019 16:55

I'd also like to clarify we have lots of non naturist friends and spend lots of time also doing lots of other tings. We don't choose naturist only activities. We have a broad span of activities and treat them all the same - we don't see naturism as 'better' than clothed activities. It's just another way we do things sometimes.

Happyspud · 12/03/2019 16:55

The problem is not naturists, it’s abusers.

Hotwaterbottleweather · 12/03/2019 16:59

Claireluna thank you for your kind words before, I appreciate it.

And I can see that you are being open and willing to reflect on the things being said on here.