AIBU or is this a MAJOR safeguarding issue?

[Whatthefudgeisthis]

NC for this,

I’ve been absolutely stunned at the ignorance shown by the organisers with this one! A naturist night at the water park 😱 this place is designed for kids entertainment, it’s basically loads of water slides a wave pool and play area etc
Who in their right mind would take a child to such an event. Obviously I’m not shooting down naturists, each to their own, but this is an event that ANYONE can attend. Known paedophiles have attended these events, with one saying that he can’t even swim. What the actual fuck is going on? Who thought this one up?
If adults want to swim naked that’s their call, but why open the event to children too?

I’m pretty sure I’m not the one missing the blindingly obvious here, but I’m so amazed at the stupidity I had to share and maybe raise some awareness.

www.stokesentinel.co.uk/whats-on/family-nude-swimming-session-coming-2589946

These events are being held across the country, so there’s possibly one near you.

*@itwasntpreeclampsia*I have read the full thread.

Please don't insult me.

These are just two of ordinarydads comments.
Would you feel comfortable with your child mixing with someone like this. I’m not making clothing an issue, I want to know about your thoughts on these comments, not as a naturist, as a mother.

Though I think it very suspicious and a bit sick to want to take a lot of photos of other people's children (and not a thing I would want to do), strictly legally it is not 'child abuse', as no actual harm is done to the children

The business of keeping and viewing illegal photographs of children is probably a symptom of a sick mind, but again it does not harm the child.

@whatthefudgeisthis

To be honest, I rather prefer to meet and interact with people for a while, before getting any preconceived ideas so I'm not sure I can answer your question properly.

I imagine those quotes are from longer interactions so out of context, again, it's probably difficult to understand the bigger picture.

I'm not really sure this is the line of discussion I want to go down.

What I can observe, is that the whole topic of paedophilia is one that stirs up huge emotions, for obvious reasons, and it is, I personally believe, a very huge and complex topic, and one that should be treated with due care and consideration, without slipping into hysteria or knee jerk reactions.

Feel free to read the entire thread. Then you can judge properly rather than assume that I have taken it out of context

I'm ok thanks...

And that tells us everything we needed to know

What do you believe it tells you....?

You’re not willing to discuss the topic, which is safeguarding.
Correct me if I’m wrong but if someone that is attending these events and has those views regarding child abuse, they are a danger to children.
Again not a naturist issue, a child protection one, I’d be alarmed by the comments no matter what the situation, however you’ve refused to read them and discuss them despite saying you’ll answer questions.

My question was, would you be happy to have this man attend events with your child(ren)?

By refusing to even read the comments we can only assume you’re an enabler, or at the very least, put your wants before your children’s needs.

Again, correct me if I’m wrong, or feel free to read the thread and discuss

Apologies, I'm tired and I'm not able right now to go through the thread to find the discussion where these comments came from. What photos are being talked about? Who is taking photos of children? I'm sorry, I just don't understand how to answer your question.

I'm happy to answer questions about naturism and safeguarding, please, ask away, but I don't want to get involved in something that seems to have got heated and personal between two people on a thread.

It was a safeguarding question. This wasn’t personal, in fact I joined in toward the end of the discussion.

Please, read it tomorrow and let me know your thoughts once you’ve had a sleep.

Sweet dreams

To be honest, I don't understand the question in terms of safeguarding policies and naturism.

It wasn’t anything to do with policies, or naturism and everything to do with basic common sense and natural instincts

It was a yes or no answer.

Would you let ordinarydad near your children. I’m not asking about naked, im not asking about NSPCC policies or anything like that. Im asking would you be happy with someone like that attending a family event with your children

I’ve honestly no idea how a parent can read those quotes and not immediately see how alarming they are.

I have just been on the BN website - obviously not looking in the right place so was wondering where the link is for their safeguarding policies and procedures? Where does it state that taking photos is banned?
Also, please tell me that the online community gallery does not allow naked photos of children on there?
I have already written the above in a previous post - if anyone can answer my questions I would be grateful, thank you.

I didn’t find that policy on their website. It was on a google search.
As far as I can gather, they have a designated photographer. The images of kids most probably are on their website, again correct me if I’m wrong.
One google search ‘British Naturism Waterworld’ and it does show posed group photos, with children. Not that great at safeguarding are they if those images are public!

So on the actual BN website there is no mention of safeguarding policies and procedures?...if there are any naturists that can correct me please do because I would have thought that they would make the promotion of safeguarding the highest of priorities? Obviously there is also no mention of being supported by the NSPCC and an explanation on how child naturism promotes the PANTS rule

@claireluna5 I am going to deal with your points all one by one as clearly as I can. You are right, I was sarcastic and rude last night and this post will not be sarcastic or rude.

I started reading the thread being concerned but open minded,and as the thread has gone on what has been said about the current way naturist groups involve children, and the attitudes of naturists on here, it has all become more and more concerning, in my opinion.

Trying to rephrase what I said last night in a more moderate way, I believe that if naturists were putting the children's needs first, the naked swim would be a very surprising choice of activity, especially given all we have heard on this thread. Please don't stop reading now - I will explain. It isn't to do with my personal likes and dislikes of activities, more to do with what children generally would benefit from and enjoy most and be at least risk from.

I thought your posts were patronising because you were dismissing concerns as being the other people's problems, and also telling people that they were just being triggered or getting upset - really it is for them to tell you their thoughts and feelings, and whether they are being triggered.

People can be triggered if they haven't fully processed a negative experience, and not everyone who has been abused will still be triggered. People who have been abused or experience of abuse will have an insight into how child abusers can operate.

My main concern with your posts is that you did not seem to be reflecting on what had been said, you were simply coming up with stock answers (such as "you must be very upset, you must be triggered") and when there was no stock answer available to you you said you could no longer be part of the discussion. I am going to say something a bit contentious now, but I am saying it very genuinely - it comes across as though you yourself are being groomed, because of the stock answers and the lack of reflection and responses.

AFAIK, the prevailing view is that children cannot make the choices you are asking them to make. In my opinion at events such as the "naked swim" they should be in swimming costumes at the very least. There is no reason for them not to be in costumes. They can learn the joy of being naked without having to do it in public. And if enough of us get NSPCC to look at the matter further, the NSPCC may consider it inappropriate for children to attend and further action will be taken, I don't know.

I didn't have any notions about naturalism at all before i started reading the thread, so no I didn't have preconceived notions, and I have said more than once that I had no issue with adults getting naked or naturism events - other than in relation to how children were being involved.

I did try very hard to see your side. I feel that you were not taking on board the fact that your dd sometimes feeling uncomfortable is something that should be explored, and that your children are too young to be making these choices.

I hope I have covered everything and that it is now clear.

jux my post was sarcastic and angry because of the posts of the afternoon and I apologise if you felt insulted. You say you had read the full thread, so I was wrong about that.

At the time the furore around the swim became apparent, the current safeguarding policy was on the BN website. Unfortunately due to aggressive/abusive messages etc the website crashed and then had to be locked down, and I think the safeguarding policy ended up being in a locked down location.

BN are responsive to (polite) messages so anyone wanting information will be responded to.

Ironically, the safeguarding policy was at the time undergoing its yearly review. I believe that is ongoing and therefore when completed the new safeguarding policy will be available to view openly on the website.

Photography - yes, this is an interesting one. I have my own personal views on this which I will share in a minute.

All I can say is what currently happens - the default is: no photographs of children at all. For this reason at events children wear red wristbands. Adults can also choose to wear red wristbands to indicate they don't want to appear in photos at all, to help make sure there are no accidental images (red is an easy colour to spot). An adult who chooses a black wristband is indicating they are happy to be photographed but any images only appear with BN (magazine, website etc). A white wristband is for adults who don't mind if any images appear outside of BN - usually media.

If for any reason a family wanted a picture, they would have to ask and parents would give express permission and any child 12 and over is also asked to give their own permission.

Personally I don't much care for photos. I don't personally believe that they are expressly necessary and that anyone researching naturism or coming across a photo doesn't get an accurate impression of what naturism is from a stylised/posed photo. Having said that, creative photography that doesn't involve express nudity I think can be tasteful and give a more accurate portrayal. That's my personal view. More passionate or involved naturists would I imagine have other views. And I understand that for a members magazine and promoting events, photography is therefore necessary in those ways.

Bit of an own goal to remove the safeguarding policy, surely if it's so robust and strict etc it would have been good to leave i t up so those sending the alleged abusive messages could see how strict it is. The policy wouldn't have been causing the website to crash so why 'lock it down'? How very bizarre.

And unusual to decide to conduct a yearly review 2 months before it's due, coincidentally around the time of all this. A cynical person might wonder about the motives behind that.

Also, why remove it from the website yet leave it online where it’s quite easy to obtain anyway?
It doesn’t make sense

@itwasntpreeclampsia

Hello,

First of all I understand and thank you. I apologise for the kisses and how you interpreted them - it's just my way of indicating that I really don't want to fight with anyone or for things to become personal, as I was worried it was heading that way.

I really do feel it is important to discuss these things. I really do understand how you could read about naturism for children and feel...uncomfortable? I don't want to put words in your mouth! Naturism isn't widely talked about, and after this furore it's probably clear why. But I'm trying my best to answer sensible questions and be as open as I can.

I really don't see how I dismissed concerns - I think you'd have to point me out to that - I've consistently tried to answer questions and address what people were saying about naturism based on what they had read in a newspaper article. Some of what people were saying or implying is just not true, or coming from an angle of a non-naturist trying to understand naturism as a new concept to them.

Yes, I am probably feeling defensive because I have read such aggressive, abusive messages about naturist parents and what other parents believe should happen to me as a result - there is a person on this thread who basically said it was a way for social services to identify 'thoroughly shit parents'. We are all Mum's here - is that kind of comment really helpful or necessary?

My comment about triggers is because I am in other groups discussing this and I keep having discussion with abuse survivors who can't understand naturism - the thought of naked adults and children is understandably worrying for them. I think this is important and I feel I have to be aware of this. Also, at the time I mentioned it, I was having a conversation in this group with someone who was consistently mentioning their abuse when they were interacting with me. I actually became genuinely concerned that this person was sat at home re-triggering their own experiences. I genuinely care about other people.

I really don't understand your comment about stock answers - I have given my personal views and experiences of my journey with naturism. It's all there to read in this thread...

As for grooming - again, I don't understand - who am I being groomed by? And for what purpose?

You have your own view about children's choices and I have discussed this in length previously so I don't want to go into it again.

What age do you feel children should be in swimming costumes at a naturist event? How would you answer a child who didn't want to be in a swimming costume? How would this be enforced? If a child is being told to wear a swimming costume at a naturist event but the adults aren't, what message does this give the child? If the family are naturists and attend other events, how do you explain to a child that they have to wear a swimming costume at this particular event and why?

Remember, these are naturist people and families - whilst a non-naturist may feel comfortable at the thought of a child wearing a swimming costume around naked adults, a naturist family would see that as very strange.

You mention about children being naked 'in public'. Naturists are not naturist in public - they are naturist within the naturist community. Sometimes, that involves British Naturism hiring a venue privately for all of their members.

My DD chose to wear bikini bottoms about there years ago. This was also a time when her friends were buying bikinis/tank top/shorts style costumes. We bought her one for when we go 'non-naturist' swimming and it just so happened the first opportunity to wear it came at a naturist event, and she was so excited about this costume so she chose to wear it then. I supported her choice...

I still believe that if you are talking about choice, you need to apply that to the whole context of a child's life. Families do things all the time that are just part of what they do, without expressly seeking permission all the time from their children. If you feel a child can't make a choice about certain things, then you have to assume they can't about other things in their lives. And what is this mystery age when I child becomes able to start making choices about what they do within the context of the family? I have said this so many times - I am comfortable with the depth of discussion we have in our family and how much we listen to our children and do things accordingly.

"Bit of an own goal to remove the safeguarding policy, surely if it's so robust and strict etc it would have been good to leave i t up so those sending the alleged abusive messages could see how strict it is. The policy wouldn't have been causing the website to crash so why 'lock it down'? How very bizarre.

And unusual to decide to conduct a yearly review 2 months before it's due, coincidentally around the time of all this. A cynical person might wonder about the motives behind that"

I can only give my understanding of the situation - BN would know more and are happy to respond to people. I imagine safeguarding reviews take a long time to go through...

You still haven’t answered my question though. In fact you seem to be avoiding it altogether.

Would you be happy to allow you children to attend any event (including clothed) with someone like Ordinarydad?

I haven't answered that question - trying to pinpoint me to a yes or no answer, about an imaginary event based on two comments from a discussion thread, I don't feel is a helpful contribution to this discussion.

I can well imagine BN have emailed their members with a stock answer that they can repeat to 'outsiders'. It doesn't make sense though.

And yes reviews of policies do take a while, I've never heard of completely taking the existing one down while that happens though, essentially leaving anything relating to safeguarding unpublished. Unless it needs a very very drastic review of course which I suspect is the case. Worrying.