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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

AIBU or is this a MAJOR safeguarding issue?

744 replies

Whatthefudgeisthis · 08/03/2019 03:40

NC for this,

I’ve been absolutely stunned at the ignorance shown by the organisers with this one! A naturist night at the water park 😱 this place is designed for kids entertainment, it’s basically loads of water slides a wave pool and play area etc
Who in their right mind would take a child to such an event. Obviously I’m not shooting down naturists, each to their own, but this is an event that ANYONE can attend. Known paedophiles have attended these events, with one saying that he can’t even swim. What the actual fuck is going on? Who thought this one up?
If adults want to swim naked that’s their call, but why open the event to children too?

I’m pretty sure I’m not the one missing the blindingly obvious here, but I’m so amazed at the stupidity I had to share and maybe raise some awareness.

www.stokesentinel.co.uk/whats-on/family-nude-swimming-session-coming-2589946

These events are being held across the country, so there’s possibly one near you.

OP posts:
RockyFlintstone · 10/03/2019 11:04

I think the poster upthread nailed it when they said that the NSPCC PANTS material is very clear cut for children ie. What's in your pants is private, and once you start introducing caveats to that eg. But it's OK for everyone to see what's in your pants if you are at one of the events that Mum and Dad like to go to, it starts to get messy.

CordeliaEarhart · 10/03/2019 11:16

What's in your pants is private, so you get to choose who sees it. I don't think that's particularly complicated for children to understand.

I'm not in to being naked in front of strangers, but I don't think there is anything inherently wrong with it.

FissionChip5 · 10/03/2019 11:20

What's in your pants is private, so you get to choose who sees it. I don't think that's particularly complicated for children to understand

Children are incredibly easy to groom, to be made to believe that what they are doing is their choice, that is all ok. They have no understanding of the motives of some adults.

Claireluna5 · 10/03/2019 12:16

"What's in your pants is private, and once you start introducing caveats to that eg. But it's OK for everyone to see what's in your pants if you are at one of the events that Mum and Dad like to go to, it starts to get messy."

Naturism isn't about looking at each other's privates, or seeing what people have in their pants.

The NSPCC campaign is from the viewpoint that in a specific situation an adult might try and persuade a child to undress, or partly undress, to expose their privates for the adult's express 'desires', and trying to educate children about those scenarios.

There are caveats to the NSPCC 'privates are private' - doctors, nurses etc which are mentioned (but could still pose issues anyway).

As someone else has mentioned, grooming is so complex, that very often children are made to feel like things are their choice anyway.

And when we come back to grooming, we come back to a whole lot of other things too!

It is such a complex topic...

Ordinarydad · 10/03/2019 13:22

" Rigorous? I’d need more checks to work as a dinner lady than join BN "

Read what I said. I was talking about actual attendance at events. Have you ever been to one? If so, tell us exactly what was missing in terms of child protection? If not, stop treating surmise as if It is experience.

Ordinarydad · 10/03/2019 13:26

" Children are incredibly easy to groom, to be made to believe that what they are doing is their choice, that is all ok." Yes indeed. And most children are groomed by their parents into thinking that there is something shameful about their bodies. They don't even realise this is learned behaviour, not any kind of objective reality. It is one of the reasons why so many young women don't go for cervical smears nowadays - they were brainwashed as children into thinking that 'down there' is only for sex. The fixation with prudery and sex are very closely related.

Ordinarydad · 10/03/2019 13:35

" John (another newbie, welcome to mn!), Can you link that data you refer to? Admittedly I've never actually read it so it would possibly be educational for me. "

I think he may mean this: www.bn.org.uk/files/file/740-bn-children-deserve-better-report-2016/

FissionChip5 · 10/03/2019 13:36

It is one of the reasons why so many young women don't go for cervical smears nowadays - they were brainwashed as children into thinking that 'down there' is only for sex

Nothing to do with the shitty treatment many women experience at the hands of the medical community, especially in gynaecological matters?

And most children are groomed by their parents into thinking that there is something shameful about their bodies

Who said that children should be tought to be shamed of their bodies?

The fixation with prudery and sex are very closely related

It’s you who is fixated. No one here is saying naturism is about sex, at all.

RockyFlintstone · 10/03/2019 13:45

Naturism isn't about looking at each other's privates, or seeing what people have in their pants.

What is it about then? (Genuine question). I thought the whole point of it was looking at privates so that you are effectively 'desensitised' to them?

Meandmetoo · 10/03/2019 13:52

Ordinarydad thanks for that but that can't be the report that John is referring to. That BN report is basically a literature overview and will be obviously biased in its interpretations. I asked for the statistics he mentioned. I checked the 'citations' and none of them were relevant at all to John's claim. lots of "this doesn't actually prove what were saying, but there's a tenuous link somewhere" though. Actual lol Grin

FissionChip5 · 10/03/2019 13:52

You say that 'known paedophiles have attended these events'. What evidence have you of that?

How about that guy who was chairman of a naturist swim club and public relations officer for British Naturism?
Over 1000 images of children , many of them he claim were just naturist photos.

user1496701154 · 10/03/2019 14:10

That's wrong to me not the naturaist in themselves letting children go. And not all men are peados women can be as well alot of people are been sexists here

Claireluna5 · 10/03/2019 14:16

"What is it about then? (Genuine question). I thought the whole point of it was looking at privates so that you are effectively 'desensitised' to them?"

Goodness no! I have no interest in other people's privates! The one thing about naturism is that you quickly realise - no one cares what you look like and no one is actually expressly looking. It's relaxing to be without clothes in an environment where its perfectly accepted and actually, pretty much a non-event. I have never heard of naturism as an attempt to desensitise...

Naturism is the practice of going without clothes. Naturists are comfortable with nudity. It makes sense to be with other people who are comfortable with nudity. (It wouldn't be fair to be naturist in front of anyone who wasn't comfortable with it).

On a deeper level, I enjoy being free from clothes, particularly whilst swimming or sunbathing for example.

My husband very rarely wears clothes at home when there is only us around. He finds it the ultimate in relaxation to not be bound up in clothes - for him, it's a sense of being free and relaxed.

Some naturists practice naturism moreso on holidays abroad, others join clubs, others just go to swims - there's a variety of ways of enjoying naturism.

Therefore, when naturists get together we are starting with a common ground. From that, we can just enjoy each other's company, much as getting together with any group of people who have something in common.

Ordinarydad · 10/03/2019 17:12

" How about that guy who was chairman of a naturist swim club and public relations officer for British Naturism?
Over 1000 images of children , many of them he claim were just naturist photos."

I know the case you refer to. He was not a 'known paedo', his proclivities were not known until he was convicted, as he had lied for years. The instant this was discovered he was thrown out of BN and the swim club, permanently. You will get a few rotten apples in any barrel; the important thing is to deal with them. No doubt you would condemn all the clergy because there have been a few paedos in the Church? Perhaps you don't trust any of the police because one or two have been bent? Maybe you think children should be kept out of school because there have been cases of child abuse by teachers?

FissionChip5 · 10/03/2019 17:34

No doubt you would condemn all the clergy because there have been a few paedos in the Church?

If the churches held mass naked knowing that there have been peadophiles in their organisation then yes, I would condem them all.

Maybe you think children should be kept out of school because there have been cases of child abuse by teachers?

Well, again, if they held classes naked... .

itwasntpreeclampsia · 10/03/2019 17:55

@claireluna5 I haven't caught up with all the posts yet but just saw your posts about the pants rule - the pants rules isn't just about which adults you let see your private parts or grooming. It is also about the fact that showing your private parts and letting other people see your private parts and touching others or them touching you, are choices and respecting other people's choices and that children are not old enough to make those choices. Children will not be able to make informed choices about the consequences and how they are feel or deal with the emotions it may bring up.

itwasntpreeclampsia · 10/03/2019 18:02

I am not picking on you claireluna5 I genuinely think you are being naive.

The persistency of the thought that children are 'dragged' along without choice children are not emotionally mature enough to make the choice you are asking them to make.

And I completely understand the trigger regarding naked adults/children as I have said before, you cannot assume that the concern showed here is anything to do with a trigger. Or that anyone who has been abused will be triggered. You raising it over and over even after had this explained to you comes across as a sort of tactic to deflect away challenges, which is a bit worrying if right.

itwasntpreeclampsia · 10/03/2019 18:03

*to do with respecting I meant

Claireluna5 · 10/03/2019 18:09

@preeclampsia

It's clear from yesterday that naturism isn't for you and I understand and accept that :)

My post was in regard to a specific point someone made, so when you have caught up with the posts, it will probably make more sense.

I personally believe that children are able to start learning early on about making choices and respecting other people's choices, especially if it is modelled for them by the adults around them. Just in the same way adults can support children when dealing with emotions etc.

Naturist children aren't automatically excluded from the NSPCC's pants rule.

I'm probably going to leave it there now in responding anyway, as I feel I have responded to anything that may have been misconstrued or misunderstood about naturism.

It's been a really interesting discussion and I have learned a lot myself from it xxx

itwasntpreeclampsia · 10/03/2019 20:24

@Hotwaterbottleweather thank you for sharing that, and I am really sorry about your experiences Flowers

@claireluna5 I have caught up with the posts. In relation to what I wrote about the pants rule, yes it is important that children learn to make choices but they have to be age appropriate choices. Making choices about sexual issues and, I would argue, showing their private parts in public, is not appropriate for a child, full stop.

And I thought that that was the NSPCC stance too. If the NSPCC is supporting you, is there a lack of joined up thinking there? Could you link a document that clarifies the NSPCC guidance on safeguarding at these events?

No one is being down on naturism for adults. Most people love the sensation of water on bare skin, you are not unique there, most people love to be free and easy with their bodies in privacy or with people they love or want to be naked with, you are not unique in enjoying being nude. Sometimes social norms or other people's needs intervene.

Ordinarydad · 10/03/2019 22:36

FissionChip5 , I can see your problem is with nudity, and not really about genuine child protection at all. OK, so you don't like nudity. Just don't try to dress your prudery up as something it is not. And try to believe that there are a lot of ordinary folk who really don't equate nudity with sex the way you do.

RockyFlintstone · 10/03/2019 22:40

Just don't try to dress your prudery up as something it is not.

Urgh, stop referring to having boundaries around who sees your naked body as 'prudery'.

FissionChip5 · 10/03/2019 22:57

This reply has been deleted

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FissionChip5 · 10/03/2019 23:12

It’s really quite sickening how het up certain posters are getting simply because others are concerned about children’s safety. Pretty much sounds like their number one concern is freedom to be naked around and have naked children around them.

Turns my stomach.

UnspiritualHome · 11/03/2019 01:30

Fissionchips, you're completely ignoring what people who know what they are talking about have said about safeguards at nudist activities.

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