AIBU or is this a MAJOR safeguarding issue?

[Whatthefudgeisthis]

NC for this,

I’ve been absolutely stunned at the ignorance shown by the organisers with this one! A naturist night at the water park 😱 this place is designed for kids entertainment, it’s basically loads of water slides a wave pool and play area etc
Who in their right mind would take a child to such an event. Obviously I’m not shooting down naturists, each to their own, but this is an event that ANYONE can attend. Known paedophiles have attended these events, with one saying that he can’t even swim. What the actual fuck is going on? Who thought this one up?
If adults want to swim naked that’s their call, but why open the event to children too?

I’m pretty sure I’m not the one missing the blindingly obvious here, but I’m so amazed at the stupidity I had to share and maybe raise some awareness.

www.stokesentinel.co.uk/whats-on/family-nude-swimming-session-coming-2589946

These events are being held across the country, so there’s possibly one near you.

*Normalising nakedness can work the other way though too. A child brought up in a naturist family would be much more aware of what is unacceptable behavior when naked, than one brought up clothed, because to a clothed child all naked behavior is unacceptable.

And that last part isn’t ideal because...?

Good, I hope my kids do grow up thinking that unclothed behaviour is unacceptable until they’re old enough to consent.*

Because the child is unaware whether something is sexual or not. Plus a naturist child will have been taught what behavior is and isn't acceptable while naked, and therefore they would be more aware of someone breaking those rules.

We can fluctuate between our levels of comfort - we all do that. I do it too I think that you are attributing adult type feelings and processing to a child.

Children cannot make informed decisions about this sort of thing, and may be feeling uncomfortable about the adults around them without saying.

I think it is worth exploring the swimsuit thing and why your dd wants to wear it sometimes further.

Anyway, I am out now. I hope that the right decisions are made.

I have name changed for this for obvious reasons.

I was brought up as a naturist from a tiny baby, so I can answer some of these concerns from a child's point of view.

In all honesty, it was never weird. I absolutely knew the difference between being naked in our community and someone wanting to touch my body, it genuinely wasn't an issue. Kids are pretty savvy and can understand different norms in different situations. I also knew that I didn't discuss our naturism with my non-naturist friends, (because of the kind of attitudes of some on here).

I haven't been a naturist for years, but back then (I'm in my 40s), security was pretty tight, not just anyone could join. The only dodgy incident my parents ever knew of was a guy who had become overly friendly with my brother (as in started seeking him out to talk to and started giving him gifts) and as soon as this was discovered he was thrown out of the organisation for good. Having said this, I have a friend whose daughter went to gymnastics classes for years (non-naturist, obviously!) and her teacher was found to be a paedophile. Naturism doesn't attract more paedophiles than other groups, in fact they are pretty strict about vetting, because they are also parents who don't want dodgy people near their kids.

The thing is, because you will tend to frequent the same clubs/campsites/swimming sessions, you get to know everyone so you would know if someone with dodgy motivations started hanging around. My parents always said they would never bother locking anything on a naturist campsite, but they def wouldn't on a standard campsite, because they trusted the naturists more, because of the community aspect.

Someone mentioned how late some of these things are, therefore they can't be aimed at children - the reason our swimming sessions were so late was because we had to wait for the general public to leave the pool. Someone else was surprised about the windows being covered at their pool - not really surprising, naturists aren't blatant exhibitionists (despite what some on here might believe) and don't particularly want to be naked in front of a bunch of people who would either giggle behind their hands and comment on other people's bodies, or be up in arms about the nakedness.

As a child growing up like this, I genuinely didn't look at people's genitals, adult or child. Because I'd always seen them, they weren't interesting, literally couldn't have cared less, and I think most naturists are like this. Like anything else that you see a lot, it becomes the norm and uninteresting. So when I became a teenager, naked bodies weren't any great surprise to me.

Just to give the perspective of a child who was brought up in this way (and who absolutely had a choice as to whether to wear clothes or not).

@NaturistChild

Thankyou for posting - that was interesting to read. Nice to hear from someone who grew up with naturism :)

NaturistChild I feel the same having spent long summers as a child and teen in naturist beaches.

I was shocked how self consciously sexual I thought ‘topless’ sunbathing was the first time I went to France, and how men looked at topless women in a way that didn’t happen when everyone was simply without clothes.

I also appreciated the value of our bodies: people often derided for wearing swimsuits or bikinis, fatter People , old people, pregnant people: all just people exactly the same. And bodies with wrinkles or bulges were better just as bodies rather than squeezed into Lycra and straps designed to make an effect of some kind.

You can’t vet for paedophiles, only for those who’ve been caught (who are sadly a minority). Yes, you’d all notice jf someone new turned and starting doing strange things, but the smart ones would already be there and part of that “all”. Multiple links through this thread about active naturists being prosecuted for child sex offences.

I’m sure I am naive about how naturism works, but I am not naive about how child abuse works unfortunately.

@sinkgirl yes but that is the same as what happens in the textile world. It is not a reason to stop naturism happening.

sinkgirl you're right, you can't vet for paedophiles, but that applies to any section of society. I don't think naturists are more of a target than any other organisation that involves children. Of course there will be paedophiles who will integrate naturism for nefarious purposes (as links have shown) but I'd be interested to see how those numbers compare to the scouts/Church/professionals within a school etc. I don't think there'd be much of a difference tbh.

Also (and perhaps ClaireLuna5 coulda clarify if this is still the case) it was frowned upon for adults to always be clothed in the clubs we went to (except in certain circumstances, eg weather, women who were on their period, children etc) so if there was a man who managed to get in but was always clothed, it would be noted fairly sharpish and he would probably be asked to leave, as it wouldn't be in keeping with the general ethos. If he was happy to wander round naked but was there to perv on other adults or children, as others have mentioned, I imagine that would also be noticed...!

@NaturistChild

Yes, you are right - nudity is expected from adults, unless of course they are new to naturism and need some adjustment time - which invariably never takes long!

Claireluna5

What would you do if your children expressed discomfort at looking at naked bodies? Would you feel like you had failed at the 'naturist' thing? Would you stop taking them to events? You seem upset at the thought of not being able to go to these events, but what if your own kids decided they didn't want to look at other adults genitals? Do you feel like your children could express that sort of discomfort to you?

@RockyFlinstone

Yes, I feel I have a close relationship with my children so I feel they can express themselves to me and I listen.

It seems odd to me though - if they have been brought up naturist, to suddenly express a dislike for looking at naked bodies. Similarly, it would be unlikely a child would suddenly express a dislike for looking at people's noses, or ears, or any other part of their body.

If they did suddenly express that sort of distaste, I think that would signal a red flag for me that something deeper was going on

If they felt uncomfortable about anything we do as a family we would discuss it and figure it out together...

Rocky Obviously I can't speak for ClaireLuna, but from my own point of view, I was a naturist from birth until I basically hit puberty. I felt at this time I felt uncomfortable about being naked (a combination of my changing body and being asked by one of my classmates in the changing room why I didn't have any tan lines) and told my parents I wasn't comfortable anymore. And that was literally it, we never went again. It was never an issue, they didn't try and persuade me, it was totally my decision and they respected that. It really was that easy.

But just to clarify, it absolutely had nothing to do with not wanting to see other people's naked bodies. That really really didn't register with me.

It is not a reason to stop naturism happening

I never said it was. It’s a good reason to keep children out of it though, I think it’s something that only an adult who can make that decision should be able to do. There’s really no need for a child to be exposed to large numbers of naked adults, whatsoever (and parents wanting to do it so the kids go too isn’t a good enough reason IMO).

I’m pretty sure that even men who aren’t there to “perv” get erections at some point so I’m not sure what that would prove. If a teenage boy were taken into that environment I imagine that involuntary erections could be really distressing for them.

There’s really no need for a child to be exposed to large numbers of naked adults, whatsoever

But like I've been trying to say, as a child who has experienced this, the nakedness was never an issue. I didn't even notice other people's bodies because it was always there and never a thing.

I imagine if I took my 10 year old, she would be horrified as she's never been exposed to it (even though as a family we are very open), but for a child who has always been part of naturism, it's not an issue. I think you're perhaps thinking about it as an adult who has not experienced naturism and are projecting that onto children.

@Naturist Child - I love how your parents totally supported you :)

@ClaireLuna5 yeah, they're pretty fab

Sometimes a bad experience skews our idea of what is normal. It's common then to be overprotective.,this can be damaging just as neglect is. Some people let their kids ride a bike on the road, others find it dangerous, contact sports, climbing, walking home alone, sleepovers etc. All have to be risk assessed. Moral panic is a sign of your unease,,sorry if you have had unpleasant experiences, perhaps they have heightened your hazard radar. That could be helpful or it could be just you can't tell what is safe or not. Let others judge what is safe for them

But like I've been trying to say, as a child who has experienced this, the nakedness was never an issue. I didn't even notice other people's bodies because it was always there and never a thing.

But then how, as a child, would you know that someone with 'bad' intentions may have been doing something wrong if you had come across them.

Like, my child has been taught that what's in your pants is private, that adults (outside of home) shouldn't be showing what is in their pants, and that no one should be looking at what is in their pants. I hope that this might go some way towards safeguarding them in that, if someone asked them to take their clothes off, or if someone got undressed in front of them, with sinister intentions, they would know it was 'wrong'. Obviously I can't guarantee that this would happen, I can only reduce risk.

If nakedness isn't an issue, how would a child know that an adult asking them to undress or being naked in front of them when they shouldnt be is wrong?

Do naturist children understand that most people don't get naked, I guess they do? Do they understand that someone being naked in front of them might be wrong? Even if it is someone from the naturist community?

I know I was flippant earlier in the thread but these are genuine questions.

Massive massive overreaction. And all the posts about children seeing adults naked or children being seen naked! Is the human body that awful that we should be horrified at seeing someone unclothed! I think it's good to expose children to normal adult human bodies. They see all this "perfection" in the media and on social media that distorts their view of normal and creates unrealistic expectations, it's healthy to have something to counteract that.

@RockyFlintstone

As I mentioned, I am in my 40s so what went on when I was young may well have changed since then, but to answer your questions based on my experience:

But then how, as a child, would you know that someone with 'bad' intentions may have been doing something wrong if you had come across them.

I guess I wouldn't have, but no more than any other child who comes across a dodgy scout leader/priest/teacher/sports teacher etc.

Like, my child has been taught that what's in your pants is private, that adults (outside of home) shouldn't be showing what is in their pants, and that no one should be looking at what is in their pants. I hope that this might go some way towards safeguarding them in that, if someone asked them to take their clothes off, or if someone got undressed in front of them, with sinister intentions, they would know it was 'wrong'. Obviously I can't guarantee that this would happen, I can only reduce risk.

I was a child of the late 70s/80s, so the PANTS thing wasn't really around. I don't know how old you are, but the only thing I can remember was Charlie who told us not to go off with strangers. That said, I still knew that adults shouldn't be asking to see or touch our bodies unless they were parents or medical professionals. But at the naturist club, it wasn't like people were looking at our bodies, so it almost didn't compute that it was the same thing with a non-naturist. I NEVER would have shown my body to anyone outside of the naturist environment, but I didn't at the time consider that I was showing it to people inside the community, because that's just how it was.

*If nakedness isn't an issue, how would a child know that an adult asking them to undress or being naked in front of them when they shouldnt be is wrong?

Like I said above, the two were completely separate. I would have been horrified at the idea of showing my body to anyone who wasn't a naturist (and I didn't 'show' it to people who were naturists, it was just the way we were, but not in a 'this is my naked body' way)

Do naturist children understand that most people don't get naked, I guess they do? Do they understand that someone being naked in front of them might be wrong? Even if it is someone from the naturist community?

For me, I knew that what we did was different to my other friends, which is why we didn't talk about it with them. But only in a 'other people don't understand and might think it's weird' way, not that there was something inherently wrong with the way we lived. No, I didn't think being naked in front of someone from the naturist community was wrong, because that's just what we did. In fact, they were the only people I knew it was ok to be naked in front of, because I knew they didn't judge. Does that make sense?

@RockyFlinstone

I'll try and answer your questions - thank you for asking, I think they are important questions...

Ok, so, if you imagine naturism as the same as anything, but with no clothes, it helps. So, for example, the Sandcastle swim, families going on rides together, people bobbing in the waves, people wandering about going from place to place - exactly the same as it looks in the day, just no one is wearing swimming costumes. So, nothing 'else' happens. In that way, a naturist child would absolutely know the difference if an adult was acting differently than usual, because it's still something that is outside the norms of what usually happens, clothed or not.

And your other question - no one really asks a child to get undressed - it just kinda happens because that is what naturism is - people arrive and undress. The same as when you go swimming, even very small children will understand its the time to undress and put a swimming costume on. So for a naturist child to be with a dressed adult, asking them to undress, in a non naturist environment, that would seem odd...

Naturist children wouldn't see a naked adult in a naturist environment as inherently wrong. But if that person started displaying behaviours that they don't usually see all the other adults doing, they would pick up on it. Kids are pretty savvy...

It's a bit like NaturistChild explained when a man started getting closer to her brother and giving him gifts - those sorts of signs are there whether someone is clothed or not...

I hope that helps?

And also to clarify, as I think I posted at the same time as NaturistChild, and having read her eloquent answer, there was something I meant to include but didn't. Which is, that because things like grooming and sexual abuse etc are so very complicated, just because a naturist child may pick up on an adult acting differently, that doesn't mean the child wouldn't be susceptible either, if that makes sense. Being a naturist wouldn't 'protect' a child per se, because grooming etc is such a complex experience based on a huge range of specific circumstances.

Sometimes a bad experience skews our idea of what is normal. It's common then to be overprotective.,this can be damaging just as neglect is

You’re absolutely right. Being abused as a child takes away a sort of filter that other people have when they haven’t experienced this sort of abuse. Those who are fortunate not to experience it can’t really comprehend it on a real level and they view everything through a filter where it seems like something that’s very unlikely to happen. Unfortunately that’s misplaced.

Am I going to be overprotective of my children? In general, no. But I am going to keep them away from unnecessary risks. I would consider taking them into an environment that desensitises them to adult nudity an unnecessary risk. If they enjoy football or scouts then I have to balance the risk of abuse against what they are gaining from it.

Being massively overprotective can of course be damaging, but avoiding unnecessary risk is not the same thing.

I don’t want my children to be ashamed of their bodies, but I think it’s not unhealthy for children to have some inhibitions since we live in a society where nudity is uncommon.i don’t believe children need naturism to grow up with body confidence and I doubt that’s why many families are there (I suspect in almost all cases, parents were naturists before having children and their children then tag along). I wouldn’t feel comfortable taking my young children to something that many adults would feel uncomfortable about and which the children themselves may feel uncomfortable about if they weren’t so accustomed to it (and as per a pp, may be uncomfortable once they reach puberty).

But if that person started displaying behaviours that they don't usually see all the other adults doing, they would pick up on it. Kids are pretty savvy...

Sorry, but there’s that filter again...

If this were true, every child abuse victim would instantly know something was wrong when their abuser undressed / asked them to address / behaved differently with them than other adults do. But they don’t, because of grooming. Or they do, but they don’t feel able to tell anyone, for myriad reasons. Just because a child knows that someone is acting differently doesn’t mean they’ll be able to stop it or tell anyone what’s happened.

This is why things like the PANTS rule exists - it’s clear and simple, and introducing caveats to that makes it less effective at protecting children.