AIBU in saying that males are not inherently violent?

[QueenofmyPrinces]

Today I was having a debate with a few female colleagues about men and violence after one of our colleagues (male) had been jumped last night by three other men who then stole from him and beat him up.

This including us talking about DV, general assaults, murders, violence in gangs, mass murderers, injuries caused to children (including causing them death), acts of terrorism, rapes, and petty (but serious) drunken brawls that occur on Friday/Saturday nights. One of my colleagues said it isn’t just coincidence that the perpetrators of the above crimes are more often than not carried out by a male.

She said that she often wonders what it is that makes men do these things whereas women generally don’t - well at least not to the degree that men do.

I just sort of shrugged my shoulders and she then said that it must be in their DNA because what else is the fundamental difference between men and women if not our genetic make up?

I told her I felt uncomfortable about that train of thought as I have two sons and I didn’t like to think of them having something present in their DNA that meant they had the potential to be seriously violent towards others.

I said that there are instances of women murderers, female gangs, females who caused DV, females who brawl when drunk, females who hurt children etc and so how could she say it was DNA related? I also said that if it were related to DNA then how come every man isn’t violent and capable of such awful crimes? She then just reiterated that the number of men who commit these crimes compared to women is staggering and that’s the only explanation she can think of.

I told her that surely it is society and other external factors that play a huge role in what causes a man to be a violent one but she was very non-committal about my suggestion.

I then left the conversation feeling slightly uncomfortable and as I walked away I heard her say to our colleagues that I was “so naive” and then she laughed

Was IBU to make my points or am I just being a soft touch by not wanting to believe that men (not all, obviously) will always be violent, that the potential is always within them and that’s just the way it is? It sounds so ridiculous that I still can’t quite believe that she said it or thinks it.

peer-on-peer abuse accounts for a third of child sexual abuse, predominantly boy-on-girl.

Your hypothetical daughter has a 1 in 4 chance of becoming a victim of male violence in her lifetime though.
I used to do self defence for women last year. Our teacher (used to compete internationally for Britain in Karate, and also teaches ju-jitsu) focused the first half hour of our classes on building up our strength. Why? So that if we managed to escape, that we could run! Why? Because the odds of us winning against a male unless professionally trained, were zero.
I have been the victim of male violence. Several times. *Note to self - go back to self defence classes.

but what about if boys are attacking her? Assaulting her? He does know that a quarter of girls come out of school having experienced sexual harassment through to rape, from boys, doesn't he?

He knows that he could teach a daughter all the self defence he wanted but if a guy, or group of guys, decided to attack her then it’s highly, highly unlikely she would be able to fight them off.

Your post implies that women wouldn’t be assaulted or raped if they just just learnt how to defend themselves which doesn’t sit comfortably with me.

No matter how much self defence a woman is taught they will never match the strength and power of a typical man and if a man wants to assault/attack/rape her then there’s probably very little she can do to prevent that.

It’s disgusting that I’ve even said that but I think it’s true.

Male on female assaults and rapes occur because of the man’s actions, not because the woman didn’t defend herself properly.

No, I don't think that though I can see how it would come across. I was just trying to address the fact that your DH didn't seem to have thought that it's not just girl-on-girl violence a DD might have to deal with.

But yes, depressingly you are right and Double's point about being able to run is very true.

The latest attack on me was last August (having had several months of strenuous strength building and self defence classes). Everything I learned had gone out the window, but boy could I kick! I escaped without much damage being done to me (attempted rape), but a lot of damage to him. My teacher's training of being fit, was the most useful training I had.

I just asked my husband about the issue of him cosidering teaching a girl self defence in case she is set upon by a male and he said that he would be worried that if a daughter of his tried to fight back against an attacker that she’d actually put herself more at risk. He felt that if a man was trying to be fought off by a female then the man would then resort to extreme violence that perhaps he wouldn’t have used if the woman hadn’t tried to fight him.

Does that make sense?

He said it scares him how much risk women are at these days at the hands of men but that he doesn’t know what the answer is. He said that a lot of men get off on harming women and that until that changes then he doesn’t see how things can ever get better.

And this cunt is the reason why I took self defence classes (I am one of the victims).
He is now serving 9 years thankfully.
So maybe I'm biased about male violence. But I've seen it.

When I was bullied in school - it was mainly boys although I did get beaten up by a few girls.

Molested in high school over a period of time - man

Disciplined at home - mainly by dad

My husband got his leg broken by a relative when he was a baby out of frustration - relative was male.

Overall - I would say men are more likely to be violent than women (but there are some nasty women out there too)

That's why you need to build your fitness. You need to wriggle out of a situation and run like fuck. Predators will prey on drunk women, women who don't look like they might be able to escape etc.

I loved those self defence classes. I'd get so focused, I'd end up actually kneeing him in the balls by accident (we were supposed to pretend!).
Definitely going back, and would recommend them for any woman.

Unfortunately, there is a need for them.

Male violence is an enormous problem. I think we all agree.

But is it nature or nuture?

I think it is nurture. As pp said we socialise males into the physical, play fighting is indulged, boys are expected to like sticks and swords and guns. Teen boys are give computer consoles and act out violent scenarios every day. Porn shows domination and abuse of females.

We can look to animals for proof that male aggression is hard wired. But male animal agression is rarely directed at females or young, displays of aggression are mating rituals and don’t often cause real harm. Physicality would be expected also where animals don’t have language skills.

NAM are LT. So why are some men LT? If there are men, and large numbers of them, who can go out and not beat someone up or rape a passing female, surely the ones who are LT can control themselves similarly?

I agree with o/p. Violence is not hard wired.

That's why you need to build your fitness. You need to wriggle out of a situation and run like fuck.

So you think that if woman was being pinned down by a much bigger and stronger man it’s a situation she would be able to wriggle out of” if she’d gone to fitness classes?

Sorry, I just don’t buy it.

I’m very sorry though for what happened to you and I’m relieved for you that you managed to escape a very dangerous situation

However, I do think that women being able to escape from an attack by a male is near impossible regardless of how many self defence classes they’ve attended and how quickly they can run.

Well if not all men are like that, why are they the ones that are disproportionately represented compared to the female of the species.
Surely the stats would be similar, unless the only recurring theme is their sex.
If it's their sex, you have boys (a lot) in single parent households, who are being reared solely by a mother. A female influence you would have thought? No man there telling them to fight etc. Yet, they seem to be even more predisposed to violence.

Yes, you can learn how to escape. I did. It just involved kicking him in the balls and continuing to kick until I could run. The fitter you are, the more damage you'll do and the quicker you'll escape.

You don't need to do that with girls as they don't instinctively want to be violent or make wooden spoons into guns. You could hide the wooden spoons on the girls to stop them playing house I guess.

Boys don’t do instinctively either. They’re not born knowing what guns do or how to use them. Mine would use a spoon as a spoon.

My son’s haven’t and they don’t pretend things are weapons, yet at their school there are kids pretending to have nunchucks and machetes and AK47s. It doesn’t come out of zp owhere. I’ve not fussed about doing anything gender neutral. I give them the toys they want which is mainly trains and cars for boys and dolls and babies for girls although they all like playing shops and cooking.

But all of those toys, they are toys that they identify with and want to play with because they see them in their everyday lives (cars, shops, food, trains). It’s a very unlucky child that sees violence in their every day life, it’s media which is acclimatising them.

Saying it’s an instinct is a complete cop out because it ignores that we’re a thinking species who know right from wrong.

No man there telling them to fight etc

No man telling them not to, either, and no modelling of healthy relationships between the sexes.

So where does this hypothetical boy in a single parent household get his ideas of what a “man” is like. Few male role models in schools either. So he looks to tv and film, where men are heroes knocking out the enemy with one punch or one shot. Computer games where winning is key, where some of them have scenarios like raping and killing prostitutes, racing cars, shooting and killing other players. Porn, where a man walks into a room and a woman wants to have sex with him before he knows her name. Where anal, slapping, humiliation, holding her head down for oral are all normal. His friends, full of teen bravado boasting of sexual conquests and threating fights.

The lack of healthy male role models is known to cause increases in violence etc.

I don't think Double is saying that a woman or girl who couldn't run from an attacker is to blame for her attack. But that doesn't mean that girls and women shouldn't consider it.

So you're saying males modelling behaviour to children is key.

So, if you don't have a male modelling good behaviour, you have to assume, that a male child, is drawing on nothing but his instinctive and innate nature when he grows up.
Agree?

Why is it that everyone is suggesting that there are genetic reasons men are more violent (definitely true imo)... BUT when it comes to equal pay, everyone suggests that there are no genetic reasons men tend to choose higher earning careers such as STEM.

btw I think everyone should have equal opportunity to choose which ever career they wish, and to progress in that career given their hard work and talent. However, I do think men are more "genetically" inclined to compete and show interest in how "things" work... would that not mean we should expect that the most successful people in a population who choose STEM careers, are men?

However, I do think that women being able to escape from an attack by a male is near impossible regardless of how many self defence classes they’ve attended and how quickly they can run.

I disagree with this. I am in a profession where I've had to defend myself and get away from male attackers many times (at least 20 times in the last decade).

Obviously it is never a victim's fault that they are attacked, but there is definitely training that can help you defend yourself.

I don't think Double is saying that a woman or girl who couldn't run from an attacker is to blame for her attack

She may not be saying it, I’m sure she isn’t, but it can be read like that.

It implies that assaults and rapes wouldn’t take place if we took self defence and fitness classes to enable us to escape the dangerous men.

It’s no different to the kind of victim blaming that takes place where women are seen to be “asking for it” if they wear a short skirt.

It reads as though it is also now our fault if we get raped because we would have been able wriggle away from the man if only we’d taken self defence classes.

I’m very fortunate to have never been a victim of assault or rape and I imagine the point that is trying to be made could upset a lot of women who have been victims.

The train of thought and inference makes me feel uncomfortable so I can’t imagine how the comments may be interpreted by women who sadly have been victims at the hands of violent men.

I disagree with this. I am in a profession where I've had to defend myself and get away from male attackers many times (at least 20 times in the last decade)*

Brave lady!!

Are you in the police force? Only guessing based on what you’ve said. And if you are, do you seem much violent crime that’s committed by women?

Obviously ignore the question if you aren’t in the police

OP - but equally, you and your DH appear to be saying that there's nothing a woman or girl can do at all so she might as well not bother.

I agree that the blame/fault lies with men who attack and abuse but that is not a reason to not take some precautions. And I say that as someone who has veered from being very cautious and aware to staggering around shitfaced not looking after myself at all. I've never been attacked but that is because I have never met an attacker.

I am certainly not victim blaming. I am trying to address points you yourself have raised. Probably not very well!

I don't agree that all males are violent, neither my dad or my son have ever been violent, my ex husband was but the moment I found out that he was both physically & sexually violent, I left him & took DS with me. I can count on my fingers the number of men who I know who are violent, the majority of men I know aren't in any way violent.

The train of thought and inference makes me feel uncomfortable so I can’t imagine how the comments may be interpreted by women who sadly have been victims at the hands of violent men.

I'm so sorry that you feel uncomfortable. Bless you.

For a year after the rape by the man I linked to, I was literally furious with myself. Furious and angry with myself for not being able to have defended myself. I was A drunk B to this day have no idea how I ended up in his house C he had taken my phone D despite having only one leg he overpowered me E I have no evidence, but think I was drugged.

So damn fucking right I have taken up fitness and strength building with the zeal that only a victim can take up.

He stole 1 year of my life and I will be damned if I'm going to allow another man steal one second of my life.

You can choose to teach girls that men are lovely and that they should be polite and nice. You can teach boys to contain their INNATE propensity to violence.

What is more useful to teach, is how to fucking defend yourself. Or is that a bit too male for you?