AIBU in saying that males are not inherently violent?

[QueenofmyPrinces]

Today I was having a debate with a few female colleagues about men and violence after one of our colleagues (male) had been jumped last night by three other men who then stole from him and beat him up.

This including us talking about DV, general assaults, murders, violence in gangs, mass murderers, injuries caused to children (including causing them death), acts of terrorism, rapes, and petty (but serious) drunken brawls that occur on Friday/Saturday nights. One of my colleagues said it isn’t just coincidence that the perpetrators of the above crimes are more often than not carried out by a male.

She said that she often wonders what it is that makes men do these things whereas women generally don’t - well at least not to the degree that men do.

I just sort of shrugged my shoulders and she then said that it must be in their DNA because what else is the fundamental difference between men and women if not our genetic make up?

I told her I felt uncomfortable about that train of thought as I have two sons and I didn’t like to think of them having something present in their DNA that meant they had the potential to be seriously violent towards others.

I said that there are instances of women murderers, female gangs, females who caused DV, females who brawl when drunk, females who hurt children etc and so how could she say it was DNA related? I also said that if it were related to DNA then how come every man isn’t violent and capable of such awful crimes? She then just reiterated that the number of men who commit these crimes compared to women is staggering and that’s the only explanation she can think of.

I told her that surely it is society and other external factors that play a huge role in what causes a man to be a violent one but she was very non-committal about my suggestion.

I then left the conversation feeling slightly uncomfortable and as I walked away I heard her say to our colleagues that I was “so naive” and then she laughed

Was IBU to make my points or am I just being a soft touch by not wanting to believe that men (not all, obviously) will always be violent, that the potential is always within them and that’s just the way it is? It sounds so ridiculous that I still can’t quite believe that she said it or thinks it.

The data on sex of offender for DV murders (maybe not available for lesser offences) is collected by ONS - it was on a recent thread.

30% of DV murder victims are male and (from memory - no time to search back right now) 66% of the perpetrators of DV against men are men - mostly homosexual partners, fathers, and the ex’s of current female partners (eg Ron Goldman).

But it IS in their DNA.

All male animals behave the same, across the species. The trend is that males are more aggressive, stronger and more violent.

Thought this was widely accepted common knowledge?

Thanks, findprimaloca I read one thing on the ons site that said they’d didn’t have it, inthink it was dv generally not murdere, , but I was Browsing whilst code was runn8ng, and it not always easy to find stuff on that site!

Except for black widow spiders..And probably quite a few more species

Yes, we tend to have a gIrving birth female and a protector Male , like many animals and in that case the protector role goes to the Male, and that tends to lead to the males being bigger and stronger to Be successful. That’s genetics. They don’t need to be randomly violent.

Given what we know about brain development , given how we see violence rates and types vary across society, we can safely say that genetics means men can Ben more successful at violence than women and that the rest is a learnt behaviour

Bonobos are the nearest to humans where women lead war?

Biologically, men are predisposed to be violent to other men , the ones not in their family group/tribe. Its all based on sex and reproduction.

Male on female violence is something else entirely.

I would imagine it’s to do with both socialisation and biology. Testosterone can make people a bit violent in predisposition but not the point where they can’t help being violent. I think it’s a case of men being more inclined to respond to certain situations violently and having to exercise self control more often. Of course this is a massive over generalisation. But it’s never a case of they are violent because they are men. They are violent because that is how they choose to behave. Violence is far more common in lower classes. Does you friend think that’s genetic too? It’s not as simple as having an urge and following it. Violence is very much a choice.

Queen
Holy fuck I hope that murdering monster got life inside, how awful.

And how long until, in a world built for men, will this lead to their behaviour being excused and jail sentences lessened...

You think this doesn't already happen?

Less than 1% of rapes end up in any punishment at all.

Holy fuck I hope that murdering monster got life inside, how awful

He did. I can’t bear to think how rude women felt and how she had to explain to her two other children aged 7 and 10. It was just awful. I will never forget it. He was in his late 30’s, a good job, from a stable background with no previous history of violence to anyone which just made it even more unbelievable.

I remember when I was told about it by my parents (I was 14 at the time) and I just couldn’t understand it and I still don’t.

Testosterone is an interesting factor and could explain a lot, women who take testosterone to male levels (for sports cheating or becoming trans) often report a rise in aggressive feelings.

Women with naturally high testosterone (eg PCOS or intersex) still have a level about 3 times lower than the average male so they aren't more aggressive.

I'm with you Queen; I have intelligent, rational, logical-to-a-fault female colleagues who still trot out the 'Men, innit' line. As a mother of two boys I absolutely refuse to accept that their violent and aggressive future is written. That's why I am constantly on their cases about being better and doing better! I believe that boys can aspire to behave just as well as girls it's funny to watch people twitch when I say this....

Over 90% of violent crime is committed by men.

They could reduce that today if they wanted to. By taking responsibility for their own behaviour and that of other men. By not engaging with the elements of “male culture” that condone and glorify aggression and violence. By, in one tiny example,, not shouting at their little boys to “get stuck in!” at football training.

You think this doesn't already happen?

I meant in terms of murders and assaults where it is proven that the accused did it, but they have reduced sentences because they can blame it on their DNA...

Yes, I think there is something in the Y chromosome. You'd have to be blind not to know that, even by simple observation of the species. In evolutionary terms, they had to be, so there is probably science behind it for the more discerning debater. To me it's obvious. If you're the Mummy of 2 boys, you probably don't like to think it, but as sure as night follows day, they have a greater capacity for violence.
You are a little naive to be honest.

Interesting thou is the fact that for the majority of the DV cases I have worked on it has been the female who has attacked the male

What field do you work in wombat1a ? That would be very unusual. The statistics show that about 80% of perpetrators in DV are male. and 84% of victims are female.

What scares me is the idea that men actually enjoy being violent, like there’s some gratification in it. The idea that men seek out to commit such hideous crimes of DV, murder, child abuse and rape because they purposely want to do something horrific and cause so much harm frightens me.

I think there’s a difference between being more prone to violence and two men getting drunk and fighting, and being purposely violent to the point where you could consider the man evil.

A lot of it is society’s messages to boys. It starts from birth that boys are not encouraged to be nurturing. It is all around them. Their clothes have pictures of predators on them and girls have prey. Boys are still not generally given baby dolls to play with but encouraged to like anything to do with fighting and told it’s not ok to cry or be upset. Of course it’s NAMALT but it is still the mainstream for these ideas and that is where male violence begins.

Of course it suits racists to think that violent crime committed by black people is due to race and/or culture. It doesn't take Sherlock Holmes to see that it's mostly down to deprivation and lack of opportunity (or the perception of lack of opportunity) and things that go along with deprivation like the drugs business.

I don’t know what field @wombat1a works in. But it is true that if, in any group more than a third are women, most people will report that the group was majority women.......

If being poor, black and male and coming from a deprived background excuses male violence how do you explain the DV against me over a number of years committed by my wealthy, white, solidly middle class from devoted parents

I do think it is inbuilt in men.

Sorry, lost the exH after parents. It was there honest!

"Violence is far more common in lower classes."

What?

Even if so, could it be that very Upper Class Men have the opportunity to inflict damage to others, in other ways?

It's problematic however it is looked at.

For those who believe it's in the DNA, that male violence is inevitable, boys will be boys, it means nothing gets done about it because people assume nothing can be done about it and no one blames the men as they just can't help it.

When it comes to believing that it's all nurture, that something went wrong during the boy's childhood or they were driven to violence somehow, it always seems to end up being a womans fault, she provoked him, his mother neglected him, she didn't take appropriate precautions to protect herself, she asked for it, etc, again the men are let off the hook.

Personally i believe there probably is something innately aggressive in males, and it should be our job collectively as a society to nurture boys out of it, to help channel male energy into positive action rather than negative.

There's a knife crime epidemic in London right now, (due to Tory police cuts). When you read newspaper articles about it, read carefully and you'll see there's a subtext actually blaming single mums for the epidemic.