AIBU in saying that males are not inherently violent?

[QueenofmyPrinces]

Today I was having a debate with a few female colleagues about men and violence after one of our colleagues (male) had been jumped last night by three other men who then stole from him and beat him up.

This including us talking about DV, general assaults, murders, violence in gangs, mass murderers, injuries caused to children (including causing them death), acts of terrorism, rapes, and petty (but serious) drunken brawls that occur on Friday/Saturday nights. One of my colleagues said it isn’t just coincidence that the perpetrators of the above crimes are more often than not carried out by a male.

She said that she often wonders what it is that makes men do these things whereas women generally don’t - well at least not to the degree that men do.

I just sort of shrugged my shoulders and she then said that it must be in their DNA because what else is the fundamental difference between men and women if not our genetic make up?

I told her I felt uncomfortable about that train of thought as I have two sons and I didn’t like to think of them having something present in their DNA that meant they had the potential to be seriously violent towards others.

I said that there are instances of women murderers, female gangs, females who caused DV, females who brawl when drunk, females who hurt children etc and so how could she say it was DNA related? I also said that if it were related to DNA then how come every man isn’t violent and capable of such awful crimes? She then just reiterated that the number of men who commit these crimes compared to women is staggering and that’s the only explanation she can think of.

I told her that surely it is society and other external factors that play a huge role in what causes a man to be a violent one but she was very non-committal about my suggestion.

I then left the conversation feeling slightly uncomfortable and as I walked away I heard her say to our colleagues that I was “so naive” and then she laughed

Was IBU to make my points or am I just being a soft touch by not wanting to believe that men (not all, obviously) will always be violent, that the potential is always within them and that’s just the way it is? It sounds so ridiculous that I still can’t quite believe that she said it or thinks it.

I don't think people's attitude to boys as they grow up helps. You know the attitude of 'boys will be boys'. No, boys act like that because you let them. Perhaps if we got rid of the attitude of 'oh well men are just like that' and started instilling better behaviour at a young age, perhaps we could start changing the behaviour as adults. I believe in both nature and nurture

Wow that didn’t take long to get on to colour.
What about all the knife crime going on?
Is it racist to look at statistics and make an assessment?
Until someone in power can say “the problem is happening within this group of people “
Then nothing will change.
Teenagers will control be stabbed to death until that happens.
But every time anyone dares to suggest that the problem lies with young, black (yes I said it) youths they are vilified.
We cannot change what we refuse to identify

Will continue to be stabbed 🙄

Yeah, yeah, NAMALT. And not all violence is male. But male violence is a fucking enormous problem.

Look at school bullying- boys are more likely to physically bully someone, girls will emotionally or psychologically bully someone

Yes, male violence is a massive problem, agreed. However, and I am abso-fucking-lutely not defending men who perpetrate physical violence against anyone, but in the context of female violence against men, men often brush it under the carpet as societal stereotypes and expectations pressure men into thinking they are weak in this situation. You can apply this to females exerting emotional or financial abuse on men in a relationship - men suffer it because of said stereotypes, whereas women have more support.

Again, I'm not defending men who exert any form of violence, my posts on this forum over many years confirms this (old username - SimolySteve if you wish to search).

Circumstances make people who they are. Stereotypes do an enormous amount of harm when it comes to expected behaviours.
*
There is a truth that the majority of violent crimes are committed by men. But I suspect it is stereotyping and upbringing which plays a bigger part than dna.*

I agree wholeheartedly. A male child who grows up in an environment in which daddy exerts physical violence against mummy for years is going to think this is stereotypical behaviour and will grow up and adopt the same behaviour.

A female child who grows up in an environment where mummy shouts at daddy, puts daddy down, and repeatedly emotionally attacks him is also going to think this is stereotypical behaviour.

Also, once children enter school, societal conditioning takes place, throughout primary and then teens, where people of similar dispositions group together.

I say this as someone who grew up in an abusive childhood, who was bullied at school, by males and females, who was emotionally abused, sexually assaulted, and physically assaulted throughout my childhood. The emotional abuse continues to this day.

Yet I haven't grown up abusing people, or conforming to stereotypes. I would like to search for,figures, and I don't have time at the moment, of how many men, and women, who grow up committing crimes through childhood/adulthood grew up in an abusive household.

Sorry for the rambling post

AIBU in saying that males are not inherently violent?

No, YANBU OP. Men are not inherently violent, however they are the more violent sex. That's just a fact.

Abuse is a different matter though.

Hey Steeve
You made a lot of valid points there, tbh I was looking for something to have a go about (cos I’m cross) but I can’t

Interesting thou is the fact that for the majority of the DV cases I have worked on it has been the female who has attacked the male

yeah that is a real thing. Amazing men haven't set up men's refuges or campaigned for funding to educate about woman on man violence etc. Almost like it wasn't necessary ... interesting as you say yourself.

I know the point you are making and I appreciate it. But let's be fair here - those stats aren't about "black people" they are about black men. Black women aren't a huge contributer to the black crime and murder stats in the US.

Exactly and the common denominator here is men. Across all cultures, races, religions... Men commit violent crimes.

Name a societal group anywhere where women are committing more violent crimes than men and then we can consider whether it's nurture over nature.

I would like to search for,figures, and I don't have time at the moment, of how many men, and women, who grow up committing crimes through childhood/adulthood grew up in an abusive household

But women experience abusive upbringings too which doesn't result in them becoming murderers... An abusive childhood is one factor that is common amongst murderers, along with other common factors, the main one being that they are MEN.

I do feel that female violence is common and becoming an issue in younger women. Did anyone watch Shipwrecked on E4? In the first or second episode, a young girl disagreed with another and instead of it just being a disagreement, she started screaming how she'd 'smash her face in' repeatedly. It's almost like a growing number of women want to be seen as hard, or think they look better in the eyes of men? For me, I found it cringeworthy and shameful.

Sorry, missed some.

Have you seen how damaged children entering foster care are (male and female)? How ingrained family life has become to them, the abuse they have suffered? Of what happens when these kids hit 16 and are booted out of foster care into "supported accommodation" (lol)? Of how many enter a life of crime - men committing violent crime, drugs, women into petty crime, or if in with the wrong crowds drugs?

It's a fact, detailed in many studies, that children who were abused through childhood, entered into the care system, then booted out at 16 enter into environments and relationships that mirror their upbringing. Domestic violence, young pregnancies, drug using, alcohol binges, free with sex (often tied in to alcohol binges).

Don't let the sunshine bollocks that Cathy Glass et al spout make you think fostering these kids is a barrel of laughs and that all kids can be "healed, cured, changes" or whatever bollocks is being spouted. No doubt a proportion manage to turn things around, and this is the proportion that get written about, talked about in the latest bestseller. What about the other, large, proportion of kids who get places with shit foster care, who are so damaged they are getting pissed at 14, using drugs and having sex? Who go missing for weeks? Who, on hitting 16, get kicked out of, and abandoned by the system that's supposed to protect them.

There's kids who manage to beat even this, strong kids, kids who push through the shit years post-care with severely fucked, non-existent boundaries, who somehow manage to say "I'm not being destitute like this, fuck that", and turn their lives around.

While those who are damaged are pre-disposes to violence, drugs, sex.

Are males inherently violent? No, I don't believe so. I think males who grow up seeing violence, told its "ok", then associate violence with alcohol can become very dangerous people. The case of someone I know holding my friend by the throat up against the wall in a foreign country, replicating exactly what a family member had done to him repeatedly. It's in these growing up scenarios that some develop a penchant for violence, and the lack of moral structure and boundaries leading to many things including power, control, domestic violence, rape, murder.

Sorry for rambling again. This is a very emotive, personal, thing for me.

yeah that is a real thing. Amazing men haven't set up men's refuges or campaigned for funding to educate about woman on man violence etc. Almost like it wasn't necessary ... interesting as you say yourself.

That's probably due to toxic masculinity. They aren't allowed to be seen as weak and are more likely to be laughed at by their "friends" than supported.

What are the male vs female violence figures in a more gender equal society like Sweden?

The fact is, if a violent crime has been committed it is very very likely a man/men will be the perpetrator.

I recognise it, admit it and want to be part of fixing it (in a DV sense anyway) and I am the mother of a boy who’s father is a violent bully and a rapist. No way have I or will I write off my son as being the same just because of his gender.

Parents need to work very hard to train this out of their Sons

My kids currently attend a lovely school and whilst my sons will walk each other their understanding around violence , abuse , sexism and disablism (sure there are more !) is wonderful to see . I am frankly shitting it about secondary where I don’t know the culture and am concerned DS1 might come across views that are not as kind

It’s a big deal . Violence and rape are socialised in from a young age . I have been lucky to date with the outside influences

I’m another who’s worked in DV for a couple of decades.
Apart from a handful of cases, the male has usually been the perp. Not to say there aren’t more male victims out there who won’t come forward, but it’s usually male violence that is the issue we have to deal with.
I’ve never seen a man turning up with a couple of kids round his ankles with a black eye, and all their possessions in a few carrier bags, whereas I’ve lost count of the number of women that have presented like this.

I think you only have to look at acts performed by 'ordinary' men during war or situations of high stress to show that all men have the capacity for extreme violence due largely to their size, muscle mass, testosterone levels etc.
Women also have the capability under these situations to behave outside their norms but will be weaker and less likely to have devastating effects.
That said most men do not perform acts of violence in everyday situations. Its not that they control it, it's just not there without stressors.
Some men, due to history, family issues, lifestyle (esp drugs) do go on to develop extreme anger.
No mother likes to think of their son behaving in this way but it does happen.

I don't think they're inherently violent, but I think they are more likely to be violent. Just watching teenage boys at work - I could name only a few girls who j know to be aggressive or violent, yet I could sit here all day naming boys. Even the younger kids, the boys tend to be much rougher and love play fighting. Nature or nurture though?

Thanks everyone for your thoughts.

And to a few previous posters comments - of course I’m well aware that the majority of crime is committed by men but this is the first time I have come across someone say it’s because there’s something inbuilt in their DNA which makes the male species dangerous.

I know of a woman who was in a relationship with a man and she had an 18 month old who wasn’t the man’s child. They’d been in a relationship since the child had been about 7 months old and he had always appeared lovely.

Whilst the three of them were together the school phoned the woman to say one of her other sons was ill and could she collect him.

She left her 18 month old with her partner, as she’d done numerous times before and went to collect her other child. When she got back to the house 20 minutes later she returned to find her partner had killed the 18 month old. It was established through autopsy that the infant had been repeatedly thrown against a wall with extreme force and died from internal bleeding and severe head injuries.

I just can’t understand how a human can do this to an innocent 18 month old - it’s incomprehensible to me.

Do I think a males DNA can make him do something so abhorrent? I hope not. I don’t like the thought of something being inbuilt in men that means they have no qualms about causing such atrocities.

@wombat1a you are illustrating that male violence is influenced by lots social and cultural factors.

Violent crime is pretty much male behaviour. When women are left alone you don't find much violence or assault. When men are left alone together you will find a portion of them will attack and rape each other - you can see it across classes and circumstances from prison to boarding school to the military.

It is related to testosterone but of course there is a socialised element to it as well. When I moved to the UK I was quite shocked at how men will get drunk and then fight each other. I've seen it on a dodgy high street, I've seen it at an expensive bar in the City, I've seen it in a bloody champagne bar. I live in Asia now and it's almost unheard of to see men fighting like that. However - most violent crimes are still committed by men here even though it's far less than in the UK.

FAwcett society recent report gathering together results by of lots of studies,, suggests that men who have stronger gender sterotypes tend to be more violent. Masculinity is indeed toxic. So it’s a result of how children are raised.

the interestingbthink with black violence is that it’s poor black people and if you control for the poverty, then black violence isn’t a thing..it’s the fact that black people tend to live in poverty

DV ratio about 2/3 women victim, 1/3 male victim but some suggestion that at least some of those men were in same sex relationships, data not collected by the ONS on the offender

Frankly I think saying its in their dna allows men who are violent to excuse their behaviour. Its the whole "boys will be boys" mentality.

Saying its an inherent genetic trait basically says they can't help it, when actually they can. Its a culture that needs to change in terms of the messages society gives to children, the accountability we ask for and the stereotypes society promotes.

Frankly I think saying its in their dna allows men who are violent to excuse their behaviour. Its the whole "boys will be boys" mentality.

Absolutely agree.

And how long until, in a world built for men, will this lead to their behaviour being excused and jail sentences lessened...

It’s scary thought.