To think the hospital were wrong not to use this lady's correct title?

[PumpkinPie2016]

A friend of my husband has recently had a short stay in hospital (a few days). This last is well into her 80's now but worked her whole life as a doctor. She was the first female GP in our area and has an MBE and, as you can imagine, she worked incredibly hard for her qualification and during her career. As a result, she of course has the title Dr.

When my husband visited her in hospital, he noticed that her name on the board was down as Mrs X rather than Dr X. My husband pointed out to the nurse that Dr X had never married and so her title wasn't Mrs but Dr (he was very polite about it!). The nurse was adamant she would change it to Miss but not Dr and no matter what DH or the last herself said, the nurse would only change it to Miss. The following day, a different visitor pointed it out to a different staff member but again it was left as Miss.

Over the 4 day stay, the title varied from Mrs to Miss, back to Mrs then Miss and finally Ms. All of this lady's identification, labels from pharmacy medication, medical records etc have her title as Dr.

Now, I know that in the grand scheme of things it's not a huge deal and there are bigger things to worry about in the world, however, I can't help but think that it's hugely disrespectful to deliberately give someone an incorrect title? I also cannot fathom what the problem was with giving her the correct title?

So, can any hospital staff shed any light? And AIBU to think that they should have used her correct title.

A true Dr is someone with a PhD. The use of the Dr title for a medical doctor is awarded as a courtesy. However you don't lose it once you retire so she can continue to use it.

The thing I'm getting confused about is the people talking about "Christian names", I thought the tread was about titles not religion.

Your Christian name is your first name. The same thing just different terminology.

That's a bit random, why would a non-Christian have a Christian name?

Medical drs become Mr/mrs/ms when they become consultants though , don't they? It's the hierarchy.

I know people with PhDs who insist on Dr, understandably in some situations, they've worked hard for it.

As have drs, so I'm surprised that the title is removed when they stop practicing due to retirement as I would have thought they'd mire than earned their title by then.

@roffle Erm, no. A medical Dr is a Dr by title until they die...or get stripped of the title by the GMC. They may choose to use it in their personal life or not.

A title is not a name

Of course your title is part of your name. How odd to think that it isn’t! And anyway, why should you care if someone chooses to use Miss, Mrs, Ms, or even Dr? That’s their decision not yours. You have no more right to change someone else’s title than you do to change their first name.

Medical drs become Mr/mrs/ms when they become consultants though , don't they? It's the hierarchy.

Only surgeons/surgical trainees are Mr/Mrs etc. 'Dr' is dropped after passing the membership examinations for the Royal College of Surgeons.

Up until I think the mid-19th century, surgeons became surgeons via apprenticeships, and then potentially taking the membership exam for the Surgeon's Company/Royal College. If they passed the exam they would get a diploma, but either way, they didn't have a degree and therefore couldn't use the title 'Dr', unlike physicians who did have a medical degree. Training may have changed massively since then, but the naming convention hasn't.

To me, deliberately calling a patient by the wrong title is like deliberately changing their first name or surname. It's basic politeness and decency, and at a time when you are at your most vulnerable. At the hospital where I work, the boards don't have a title on them, but if you're going to put the title on, it should be right. It doesn't matter what your personal opinion is on using your own title outside of work/after retirement. Your title, your choice. Patient's title, patient's choice.

That's a bit random, why would a non-Christian have a Christian name?

Why do you say "dial a phone number" when phones almost exclusively have keypads rather than dials now? Why do we call a car dashboard a dashboard when the link to the equivalent part of a horse drawn carriage is so tenuous?

It's just an interesting bit of linguistic carry-over sometimes used, doesn't have to be making a significant statement on religion.

Nurse here, I would always go with patient preference in this instance (assuming capacity).
And what if the patient didn't have capacity?

If she was a “real” (😜) dr, then it was very rude. If she is a retired medical doctor then not so much, (although giving her the title Miss was rude!)

Why aren't patient's titles put on boards? Are they less entitled to their titles than the physicians and surgeons who work in hospitals. Why do nurses, and indeed physicians and surgeons, ever think they may use a patient's first name, particularly without asking?

Of course the lady should have been afforded the correct title and if she had qualified and practiced as a physician then it should have been Dr.

Anybody who uses an honorific for another human should afford the same courtesy to the patient.

Hello elderly female patent. What would you like me to call you
Dr Smith
Oh, you have a PhD?
No, I was the local gp here for 40 years. The first female one! I started in 1960. It was really hard sometimes, some of the men refused to see me!
Oh right.
So you're a retired gp then. Would you like me to call you miss or Mrs or Ms.
Dr, I just said
No. You have to choose another title. You are not entitled to be called Dr and I refuse

Yes that seems entirely reasonable.

Why would anyond advocate this? It just feels spiteful tbh. Who needs to score points over elderly women who are in hosp?

AmyDwamyif no capacity then I'd ask relatives/significant others how the patient liked to be addressed, if this wasn't an option then I'd default to exactly what was written on medical records.

"If she was a “real” (😜) dr, then it was very rude. If she is a retired medical doctor then not so much, (although giving her the title Miss was rude!)"

Why was calling her miss rude? I mean ruder than refusing to call her dr?

I'm interested and I don't get it.

As have drs, so I'm surprised that the title is removed when they stop practicing due to retirement as I would have thought they'd mire than earned their title by then

The title isn’t removed. It’s a courtesy title, as has been discussed. Retired dr’s are usually given the courtesy of retaining the title.

The only cases i’ve known where medical graduates haven’t used the title are those that chose not to practice medicine on graduation. I have several friends who chose to go into completely different fields, finance for example. They are not known as Dr, because they aren’t a Dr. They just have an undergrad degree in medicine.

I find it mildly amusing that women on this thread are saying titles aren’t important. When we have a Ms/Mrs/Miss discussion there is usually fierce defence of wanting to use Mrs on marriage, and retain it on divorce.

I use my Dr title because I feel my education defines me more than marriage. I strongly dislike Ms/Mrs/Miss. When i am asked my title i would rather announce my PhD than whether or not I have a husband.

I would rather have a title that didn't define me as married / unmarried / refuse to say AKA crazed feminist.

But, I am not a doc of medicine nor a PHD, so refuse to say as crazed feminist it is :D

I think it's worth while bearing in mind that women often "lose" prestigious titles in a way men do not. So the Mrs Smith introduced on tv, actually a Professor, is introduced alongside Dr John Smith. Nobody ommits his title.

I think this was in the news in the recent past.

Yes that's I think what is a bit grating about it.

I just really wonder if they would have taken the same approach with a man.

I don't know of course.

I do know that my parents are both medical doctors and he was never called Mr and she was very often called Mrs.

My mum didn't mind but a lot of her friends did get really pissed off with this happening all the time - it was clearly sexist.

And so to say to one of these women in hosp, I am prepared to use a title but not the one you want just feels like a real kick in the teeth.

This article is worth a look meagain

www.nytimes.com/2018/06/28/opinion/women-dont-back-down-online.html

I agree with you OP. Absurd to insist on the wrong title.

I thought they did this to avoid confusion as the doctors who are working at the hospital are referred to as doctor?

Also you are still a Mrs, Miss, Ms or Mr even after becoming a medical doctor. You are only Dr when you are practicing. Using the title at other times is merely a courtesy, it isn't necessary.

Yes pregnant just a courtesy in exactly the same way as it's a courtesy to address patients with their titles but of cpurse that rarely happens.

The lady is a Dr. She should be called Dr x. Just as I call my best friend's elderly father, in his 90's now, Dr Doe; as a former GP for 40+ years. He has not miraculously become John Doe.

Some key words I think need to be remembered: courtesy, respect, dignity and most importantly equality.

My late auntie was a doctor. When she was in hospital they just called her by a sort of nickname version of her first name. We all cringed when they spoke to her. My mum asked her if we should tell them. "Oh just leave it," auntie said.

If the staff on the ward cant tell the difference between an 80yr old patient and a practicing Dr on thier own ward then they are in big trouble already with basic comprehension Pregnant !!
If they cant then I wouldnt trust them as far as i could throw them!