Does this sound like grooming? Please help- step uncle

[Lam23]

Posting for traffic/I’m not sure where else this belongs..
Background if it helps: I’m a mum of a nearly 4 year old. She is very bright, happy, outgoing, completely normal development wise and attends nursery full time. I met dh when she was 2 and they have a great relationship, which has grown over time, i can honestly say I really trust him and she has started to call him daddy which feels natural for us all. Her dad has never been in the picture and we have no contact with him.
I have recently begun to have real worries about her relationship with my dh’s brother. He is 31, unmarried, no kids. Generally quite an immature guy (loves gaming, works minimum wage job and lives in a flat share) but seems pleasant enough since I’ve known him. However, since he met dd at a family gathering probably a year ago, alarm bells are ringing for me more and more and I don’t know if it’s instinct or paranoia. Every time he sees her he picks her ups lot, tickles her, cuddles her, he addresses her as “friend” (seems odd for a 3 year old), he always buys her extravagant presents whenever we see him. She is a trusting kid and I’m beginning to think, too trusting- because of all the positive attention he gives her (and maybe because she lacked a “dad figure” the first couple years of her life?) she absolutely loves him, talks about him loads, nowadays whenever he is there at a family gathering she just wants to go to him and has a tantrum if I say no or keep her next to me. It seems really excessive that she is so into him and that he had instigated this type of relationship with her- dh’s sister, who has kids, has what I would consider a more normal relationship with my dd and is lovely to her but definitely doesn’t push the boundaries. He has now offered to babysit a few times and I refuse point blank each time which I think dh is a little upset by (dh idolises his brother and I can’t talk to him about ANY of this). It happened again yesterday with lots of cuddling, sitting on his knee. My own brothers don’t do this with my dd and I feel like I can’t put a stop to it, but she is so trusting and I don’t know how to protect her. Whenever she needs a male figure she seems to get overly attached anyway, but for me this is going too far. She doesn’t want to be near me or dh when his brother is around, the amount of presents makes me uncomfortable and I feel like the physical stuff in public is a possible first step of grooming. Can anyone please help me understand what to do, it’s a really sensitive situation. Does this sound odd? I would appreciate anyone who knows about signs of grooming etc to weigh in. Do I sound crazy?
Fwiw my mum and sister are both teachers and having witnessed the interactions said that their own instincts were kicking in too and that the developing relationship wasn’t necessarily appropriate/he seemed a little over interested in kids.
Please help, this is stressing me out so much whenever we are around family.

I wouldn't let him babysit for sure.

The presents are a concern as it appears whether it is his intention or not to be buying her affection which young children are very susceptible to.

I think you do need to trust you gut and put some boundaries in.

You can make a request under Sarah's Law and I would suggest you do but this will
obviously be a difficult conversation, additionally you said he was in law enforcement which depending on what he does would suggest he isn't known as he would have been sacked.

My brother is cuddly with my daughters and I trust him 100% and I'm not suspicious of him but I've known him all my life and in any case he wouldn't be alone with them.

My fiancée friend babysat for us once when our eldest was a baby but we had a remote monitor and kept checking in and were just around the corner, I actually don't think I'd do this now.

Sorry op, it all sounds really worrying.

You must stick with your gut feeling on this one.

I hate to say it but your DH's attitude on the situation is really shitty. You say if you have dc together, it would be the same but what happens if he doesn't take that seriously. If you ever separated you'd have zero control about who your dc is around.

Sorry I realise my last comment isn't very helpful. I would be sitting him down and having a serious conversation about your concerns about how this situation is going to be managed to ensure your daughter is safe and how it would affect things in the future if you were to have your own dc.

After this conversation his reaction will tell you how seriously he will take what you are saying.

I think he will be blindsided by the very idea and defend his brother. I think he is quite naive really. It doesn’t matter because with something like this I can’t change how I feel or what I’m going to do, but it’s definitely a tough subject because it’s his brother. I want to take a step back in terms of dh family as it kind of feels like they try and buy her affection through gifts etc and as horrible as this might make me, I would rather the relationship develop naturally and at an appropriate distance. We spend more time with his family than mine atm (like over Xmas) and it feels like this forced bond is overtaking the actual bond dd has with my family who have always been there.
It’s such a stress whenever we are all together and this last weekend we met up three days in a row which means I’ve just been worrying about the fact that dd was so enamoured by dh brother (as well as the random male friend he brought to the meal). It bothers me and I just want those boundaries and to feel a bit more in control.
Thanks for everyone for letting me rant o! this thread!

It kills me to think I’ve given her some attachment issue. How do I begin to solve that? I’m hoping that as she grows she will be able to understand those boundaries more.

Please don’t add worries about attachment to your concerns, attachment difficulties involve quite a complex assessment which involves much more than a child responding to “affection” shown by someone considered to be a safe adult.

Listen to your concerns and start to set some boundaries - I think a two pronged approach (eg taking to her about her body, keeping good open communication generally, chatting about the people in her life, not having family “secrets”) among with talking to your DH and his wider family is a good approach.

One of the things I did when I was worried about too much physical contact etc is tell the adults in my family that I’ve been teaching both kids about personal space, different relationship (eg close family, extended family, family friends) and helping them decide how they want to show affection etc. I ask them not to ask for hugs, kisses etc but to ask my two how they wanted to say hello and goodby (high five, fist bump, hug etc) and go with that.

No offence caused, no accusations but a clear message about backing off from my kids. It’s really hard, but try not to stress too much about others reaction, you’re thinking about your child in a setting where you more than anyone have her best interests at heart.

My daughter is the same age as yours and also is confident/affectionate with people she barely knows, it isn't an attachment issue at all with her. She displays all of the characteristics of a very securely attached child.

It is because she trusts that I put her in safe situations that she acts as though the people around her are safe. She trusts me to protect her from anyone that would hurt her, so the people she is with, that I am relaxing with, must not be dangerous and she can seek the attention & affection a child thrives on.

That's the logic of that age group.

Thankyou YogaWannabe it was the hardest conversation I have ever had. My Dad and dh were very close, they still are to an extent but my dh is very protective over our dd and me (and ds). There was no other option though, there was no way that my baby was going to be at risk of abuse - or for her boundaries to be disrespected.

OP my ds is on the spectrum and as part of a course that I was on after diagnosis, we were taught how to explain boundaries to children on the spectrum. They used the concentric circles diagram to teach which behaviours were appropriate with different levels of relationships (with herself and you (any siblings), at the centre circle your dh, Mum and ds being in the centre but towards the edge, then say Aunts, Uncles, cousins, then in the next circle say teachers, school friends, then in the furthest out circle would be strangers. It would be up to you how and where to place the people in your dd’s lives. It is a useful tool and being visual it lends itself well to teaching little children like your dd.

There is also another activity which might help with teaching boundaries- it’s the third listed activity on the following link

www.families.com/activities-that-teach-7-the-case-for-personal-space

Op this sounds like the normal behaviour my own brothers would have with my child. They’re definitely all about blowing on the tummy and tickling and so forth...

So I don’t think his actions alone are fishy

But I can understand that the relationship developed between the two of them can make you paranoid, I think your instincts are right because girls need protection at this vulnerable age and it does seem that you see your daughter as extra vulnerable due to her lack of fathers presence and so on.

So I would say , do something about how you feel because it’s better to be safe than sorry.

I don't think his behaviour in your original post is that unusual and I imagine if it was an Aunty instead of an Uncle there would be no issue but that being said, if your spidey senses are feeling off, trust them, I'd rather hurt someone's feelings than let my children be harmed in some way.

My Mum's partner has always been friendly with my DD, however his ex had two sons (we knew him for years before my Mum and him became anything) and he never got a long with them despite them being very young children when he met their mother, my own brother (14 at the time) hated him and was living at home when he moved in to my Mum's house of course, he was never anything but an arrogant A/H to my brother.

The very fact that he is friendly to my DD but not those other children is enough for me to not trust him as far as I could kick him... he will never be alone with my DD, ever and I have no evidence of anything except that he is friendly to her in a way that most would consider just a run of the mill friendliness (no extra presents, no lap sitting or anything but always asks for a cuddle when it is time to say bye or engaging her in conversation etc).

Trust your gut - it's telling you something that your brain can't explain rationally, but gut instinct can often be very accurate.

Maybe he does just get a lot of enjoyment playing with your daughter, but he's not your DH's kid brother, he is a grown man and it's inappropriate.

Grooming is a long-term project for some people, so he could be setting up patterns of behaviour that make it hard for your daughter to assert her boundaries later on.

You shouldn't have to argue your case with your husband - he should respect your wishes about keeping your daughter safe.

Agree with PPs who say your DH’s attitude is the big worry here.

The thing is, you’re married (I presume, since you call him DH, not DP), she calls him Daddy and he “likes to have a say” regarding how you raise her. How often does he get his own way regarding DD? It sounds like he already has a fair degree of “ownership” (for want of a better word) over her, which is worrying if he won’t listen to your concerns. Are you sure you can trust him not to just hand your DD over to his brother for babysitting at a time when you’re working or otherwise unavailable?

I won’t even get started on the potential shitshow you face if you and DH have a child together. The point is, can you trust him to do as you wish regarding your DD? And if you can’t, would you be willing to put her first and say goodbye to him?

Firstly, I don't think there is any harm in limiting the interaction- say no extravagant presents/limit physical interaction (just tell him/whoever that you don't think its appropriate at her age etc) - safety first.
But I don't think it is necessarily a red flag- he's acting like his mother does so he's following a role- model - people without children often act OTT with children/oddly - as they are less comfortable/natural - I remember meeting uncles/aunts boyfriends who were welcoming of lots of physical contact (sitting on knee's etc/tickling)- in retrospect it was more that they didn't really know what to do when a young girl was very focussed on them!
It may be as well that as his brothers step daughter he is trying harder to be affectionate/be interested in order to treat her as a family member

I think it's fine to trust your gut but you sound like you have a lot of issues OP that you need to resolve surrounding your guilt regarding her bio father. Personally (unless I've missed something) I don't think any of his behaviour seems like a red flag, different families have different boundaries. My DM is a retired teacher but thinks most male/child interaction is grooming nowadays
She is your child and if your inner self is not comfortable then it is fine to impose your own limitations. I would however not have any children with your DH as it will make your life much harder.

The fact you have had some pushback from your H over such an incredibly important issue is very worrying.

How would you describe your H's family culture when it comes to perceptions of 'what is a man?' and 'what is a woman?'/ 'What is the role of a man?' and 'what is the role of a woman?'

Do they think men are under threat in today's world?

How would his mother answer these questions? If his dad is alive/around, how would he answer them?

This man is in law enforcement (police?) and couldn't possibly be unaware of how he is coming across.

When you are all socialising and he is monopolising DD's attention, is she getting all of his? Or is he at the same time chatting with other adults, watching a match on tv, etc?

I don’t see anything particularly concerning in any of the behaviours the OP lists (other than her own DH’s attitude) in themselves. I’ve often encountered childless people of both sexes whose natural mode of interaction with young children is very full-on, very physical, tickling, lavishing the child with attention and presents, loving the child’s obvious preference for them, and it’s just been an annoyingly extreme version of the Zany Fun Uncle/Auntie thing, with no appreciation of the larger impact of too many, sweets, presents and frothing the child up with excitement just before bedtime.

And in the case of this man, it seems to be a family style, if his mother is similar.

But obviously, the OP is physically present, and obviously should only allow babysitters she fully trusts. There’s certainly no harm in getting him to dial down the presents.

Agree with Eeny. And with lots of pps that the OP’s husband’s attitude needs tackling.

obviously no one here can advise on his intentions but the fact you said his mother acts similar made me think is how the family interacts very different to your family? could his mother have spoke to him about including your daughter, making her feel special / part of the family ECT and he's doing what his mother does? are they generally an affectionate family , how is he with his sister's children? does he cuddle them, buy presents? , have you seen him with any other children? it could well be he is desperate for his own family and is really relishing that your daughter likes him so much, he feels special, likes hearing what a great dad he would be, he's found something she likes e.g. tickling and loves hearing her laugh ECT but at the same time it could be sinister. I think I would keep a close eye and never let them be alone together and observe the situation i guess it would be oncredibly hard to say anything to your husband. What were your mum and sisters concerns ? I don't think it's necessarily because of lack of father figure some children are like that anyway my friends little one has a dad and sounds similar but again I would keep a eye but I wouldn't worry about her friends being boys maybe she just has more on common and enjoys playing the kind of games the boys are playing.

I don't think that any of the behaviours here would necessarily ring alarm bells, as you say this is how the family behave around children. I also think that your own experience, as a child combined with the fact that your family don't behave in this way may affect your judgement.

Wrong, wrong, wrong ^

OP your instincts are bang on. My concern here is that your efforts to safeguard your DD are being actively undermined by your DH. Those are not the actions of a loving husband and stepfather. He is undermining you. Unfortunately this behaviour is very common in families that shield and enable paedophiles. I am not saying he consciously knows his brother is a paedophile. It is also red flag behaviour though and is creating a diversion from your efforts to protect DD. Please step back from explaining/justifying and trying to get your husband on side. You just need to do what's right for DD and ignore your husband. I'm afraid if he doesn't get swiftly on board, it's curtains. The uncle's behaviour is textbook. He completely lacks appropriate boundaries. You know your DD has some vulnerability. Just act. Make decisions. Ensure she is protected.

also just wanted to say my cousins little one often wants another adult grandma/ aunt / friend she often says oh shall I just go now then as her little one wants to be with the other adult. They have a fab relationship I think some children just like to at with the adult they don't see they are a novelty from the parent they are every day

This cuddly overly generous stuff is not normal uncle behaviour. It's not. Trust your instincts. If his feelings are hurt and his intentions benign he will learn there are better ways to behave.

As for the fun uncle thing. I was the fun auntie for years. You defer at all times to the preferences of the parent. No "this is just between us" shit.

Please just trust your instincts. I've been that young girl at 7 yrs old, sitting on uncles knee. And it didn't end very nicely. I don't want to scare you, but if you have any, go with your gut feeling.

Given what's happened to you, it's totally understandable that your senses are heightened. However, I do think you have drip-fed somewhat as in your own head, you've already made your mind up about his brother.
Firstly, is you bil the same with his other nieces/nephews or just with your DD? If just your DD, that would certainly be more worrisome.
Secondly, you've made resentful sounding comments about the wat6his family are - they are clearly a close family, and it's not just bil who buys your daughter extravagant gifts is it? Your DHs parents do to?
At 30, bil really could be broody and he might very well be fantastic with children. You've made sitting on knees and tickling sound sinister, but in reality, lots of people do this. My children love being tickled and also love snuggling in!

I don't think you are necessarily wrong, but if your thoughts materialise to accusations with proper evidence you could absolutely destroy his life.

I know you've said your parents are teachers (I am too, so am well aware of safeguarding), but they will also have heightened reactions due to you yourself being abused. They might also be more judgemental of a close, cuddly family if your family are not like that.

"his mum buys so much for her which has always made me v uncomfortable. Tbh the way dh mum is around dd isn’t too dissimilar, but she’s an older woman with 4 kids of her own so I guess I am less sceptical of her motives."

So he could be mirroring his Mum and how they are is the norm, in their Family? It doesn't mean you and yours are right and them and there's are wrong.

"A girlfriend of my brothers once offered to take my niece to the toilet. I found that just as odd and turned it down"

I think you struggle with anyone who isn't exactly like you, or your Family.

You are hyper aware because of your past and that is making you question people's intentions.

As long as you aren't branding people as sex offenders, that's fine.

But I've got male members of my Family who are like your BIL. My Grandfather, not Biological, though, was. My Son In Law is more involved with my Grandchildren than his Partner (my DD), they don't want children full time, but he loves kids, he is also generous. He is one of my 4 year old GD favourite people, as my Grandfather was mine.

Also, there's a lack of non sexual touching in our Society. Go to other Countries and even heterosexual men are more tactical with each other.

Some people are more open to children. You can be a single Foster Carer, male or Female. Likewise, Nurse, Carer, primary school teacher and be a Man without bad intentions.

Hold off the Baby sitting until your DD is more vocal. Encourage your DD to grow up a bit, by not sitting on people's knees, put it that way to your BIL. Always step in if your DD says no. My GD at four will now tell us straight if she doesn't want touching (her curls are fantastic).

But be a bit more accepting that people are different, not odd, or strange, just different.