Does this sound like grooming? Please help- step uncle

[Lam23]

Posting for traffic/I’m not sure where else this belongs..
Background if it helps: I’m a mum of a nearly 4 year old. She is very bright, happy, outgoing, completely normal development wise and attends nursery full time. I met dh when she was 2 and they have a great relationship, which has grown over time, i can honestly say I really trust him and she has started to call him daddy which feels natural for us all. Her dad has never been in the picture and we have no contact with him.
I have recently begun to have real worries about her relationship with my dh’s brother. He is 31, unmarried, no kids. Generally quite an immature guy (loves gaming, works minimum wage job and lives in a flat share) but seems pleasant enough since I’ve known him. However, since he met dd at a family gathering probably a year ago, alarm bells are ringing for me more and more and I don’t know if it’s instinct or paranoia. Every time he sees her he picks her ups lot, tickles her, cuddles her, he addresses her as “friend” (seems odd for a 3 year old), he always buys her extravagant presents whenever we see him. She is a trusting kid and I’m beginning to think, too trusting- because of all the positive attention he gives her (and maybe because she lacked a “dad figure” the first couple years of her life?) she absolutely loves him, talks about him loads, nowadays whenever he is there at a family gathering she just wants to go to him and has a tantrum if I say no or keep her next to me. It seems really excessive that she is so into him and that he had instigated this type of relationship with her- dh’s sister, who has kids, has what I would consider a more normal relationship with my dd and is lovely to her but definitely doesn’t push the boundaries. He has now offered to babysit a few times and I refuse point blank each time which I think dh is a little upset by (dh idolises his brother and I can’t talk to him about ANY of this). It happened again yesterday with lots of cuddling, sitting on his knee. My own brothers don’t do this with my dd and I feel like I can’t put a stop to it, but she is so trusting and I don’t know how to protect her. Whenever she needs a male figure she seems to get overly attached anyway, but for me this is going too far. She doesn’t want to be near me or dh when his brother is around, the amount of presents makes me uncomfortable and I feel like the physical stuff in public is a possible first step of grooming. Can anyone please help me understand what to do, it’s a really sensitive situation. Does this sound odd? I would appreciate anyone who knows about signs of grooming etc to weigh in. Do I sound crazy?
Fwiw my mum and sister are both teachers and having witnessed the interactions said that their own instincts were kicking in too and that the developing relationship wasn’t necessarily appropriate/he seemed a little over interested in kids.
Please help, this is stressing me out so much whenever we are around family.

You are doing the right thing OP. I do think that you need your DH to know your concerns- or at least reduce contact with your bil as far as possible.

My spider senses tingled when my Dad was around my dd. Similar behaviour and an inkling of something similar happening when I was a toddler. I spoke to my husband about it, he loves my Dad too and we decided that we would be very vigilant, my Dad is never alone with dd, dd knows the pants rule, she is 9 and knows the facts of life, the real names for her body parts and that it is NOT ok for anyone to touch her inappropriately. When my parents stay my dd sleeps with me and DH and I are always in the room with dd. My Dad hasn’t picked up on it, neither have our dc who are still able to have a relationship with my Lovely Mum and my Dad. There are no other children in the family, but if I had nieces then I would have to speak to my brothers about it.

We did ban tickling which my Dad was very hurt by, but neither of my dc like tickling and I hate that it is essentially power over a child, where the child is having an involuntary response to touch. I will tickle my dd if she asks me to, which she sometimes does but she knows I will not tickle her to the point she wets herself which my Dad had done before the ban. I also have never forced my dc to cuddle or kiss anyone, they are 100% in control of who to be affectionate with.

I have no regrets in doing either of those things. My dd is safe, she is strong and knows her body belongs to her. We have a very open relationship and she can come to me and discuss anything. I chose to teach the facts of life earlier (about age 6) in completely age appropriate ways and with age appropriate books. As a result there is no shame or embarrassment related to her body or any of the changes she will go through shortly.

I realise that I shouldn’t have to do any of the above, but I don’t know for sure that my Dad is anything other than a loving Grandfather. I trust my instincts though and as said above, I don’t regret being extra cautious only the need to be cautious. My children love their Grandfather and he loves them, I haven’t ripped apart my family and most importantly my dd is safe!

I can imagine how anxious you must feel about telling your dh. Could you look at the training mentioned above and say that you were offered it via the school/ nursery. You could look at the signs together and say that you are not at all suggesting that his db is in any way an abuser, however his behaviour could leave her open to abuse from other abusers. Even say that you are concerned that your dd is more vulnerable to abuse and that you want him to help you encourage her to have stronger boundaries.

CQNC good on you for putting your DD ahead of social “norms” and politeness, it can’t have been an easy conversation to have. Huge respect to you!

I think you set good priorities in your last post. And I think the sitting on his lap, tickiling need to be dealt with at the first opportunity. So you shouldn’t wait for it to fade with the wider distancing you will try to achieve. There were some quite good suggestions about linking it with DD getting confused with other people when you are not around. So it’s more like him inadvertently putting her at risk. It could be a good idea to send DD to your mum’s when there’s a next family gathering. You can always say that you forgot your mum promised to take her somewhere (if she’s the main star of the party!) It’s quite annoying to think that you need to step on egg shells here and there seems to be a general lack of common sense in his family. And by the way I was never abused, groomed or anything like that and the thought of what you describe nauseates me. I mention that because a couple of people suggested you could be having a distorted view here because of your experiences. Does not seem to be the case.

You have to trust your instinct.

He probably means no harm but lacks boundaries but I'd make sure another adult is around just in case.

It's understandable your partner doesn't want to see his brother behaving how he is badly - so it's important you stick with what you feel is right.

I don't even know why you are pussy footing around the issue?

It's your daughter, you don't think she's safe, so put a stop to it?!

Just second guessing yourself due to societal norms and expectations!

Can you imagine a bloke posting like this? No. He'd just say no more contact, end of conversation.

Stop second guessing yourself, should read

"Saying nobody actively wants to babysit is incorrect - I know lots of people who actively want to spend time with their neices, nephews, grandchildren, god children etc. Both men and women. My fil has just asked if he and Mil can take my DS away for the weekend..... nothing worrying there at all. "

Yes, I thought this was a really odd statement. I'll have a niece soon and I hope that I'll want to babysit her, at least once she's not a small baby. I used to go and say with my unmarried great aunt as did many of my second cousins. Nothing wrong with that at all and it's insulting to say that there is.

I would have thought that, if he is in law enforcement, he would know himself what is appropriate behaviour and what would raise red flags.

The bit I'm struggling with is that your DH isn't even listening to you.

I think we have maternal instinct for good reason, and I'd back right off any contact for the foreseeable future so that you break the cycle of gifts etc. If that means offending your DH, tough. I'd rather be safe than sorry on this one.

And no "law enforcers" ever crossed a line into sexually abusing someone ?

Op, you are doing the right thing.

Protecting your dd trumps men's hurty feelz every single time. And that goes for both your husband and his brother.

Just read tft, so for what it is worth here is my opinion.
Firstly, you say your dh is not your daughters bio dad, so it is your responsibility to keep her safe. Go with that, trust your instincts.

Personally as not to cause huge offence you could have a conversation with the brother saying that you would like him to back off with the over affection as you are trying to teach her that she is allowed to say no to being touched/tickled and that she is at an age now where her body is private and she needs to know that people will respect that and to allow one person over step the boundaries is just confusing for your child, so its hands off for everyone going forward.

Secondly, bear in mind that if you have other kids your dh will have more say in the level of contact your joint children will have with his brother. Bear this in mind if you are already feeling uneasy.

When I was little I spent a lot of time with a male family friend in his 50s. I adored him, my own dad was an alcoholic and I just found this man was so much fun and gave me so much attention. He was single, never married or had kids and he had always lived at home with his dad.

I saw him a few times a week, he bought me more expensive gifts than my own parents did (TV and VCR for my room in 1990!), we holidayed with him a few times. He bought me new swimwear on those holidays (when I was 7 - 9 years old - we have old camcorder VHS tapes of me modelling the swimwear). When I look back I'm horrified that my parents let me get so close to him! I don't recall anything inappropriate happening but i feel as though i would have EASILY kept it a secret if it had.

In the end, he had a big falling out with my parents (nothing related to me) and my parents went NC with him, I truly grieved for him and was distraught for a long time over it. It affected me deeply, I was so hooked onto him.

I just wanted to give you my perspective on unhealthy boundaries in childhood, you are right to be careful - even if it's as simple as you and your DP split up and you've now got a DD who is hankering after her uncle.

It was kind of tongue-in-cheek that 'nobody likes to babysit,' and I don't think that all men are paedophiles. However; it can be a red flag, and in this case it is.

OP - I'll simply say Trust your Gut! I had a lovely cuddly tickly 'uncle' , he waited until I got puberty , so about 12 years old, then I was groped and he tried to stick his tongue down my throat. I blanked him after that, never spoke to him, went near him, but never told my parents (was many years ago, I'm not sure why I didn't really, I suppose I handled it in my own way).

I have a DD. I'm teaching her to not be polite if she feels uncomfortable. Shout out, say no, be rude etc. I will always listen to her. I was brought up to be a polite good little girl, not offend people.

he always buys her extravagant presents whenever we see him. She is a trusting kid

She's 3 years old FFS! Of course she's a trusting kid. She can't stipulate her own boundaries. Up to you as a parent to do it.

Step up to the plate and tell him not to buy extavagant presents!
And fuck those off in the family who tell you "Oh, no problem, don't be a party pooper." or some such.

Trust your instincts. It comes when you give birth... :-)

Fwiw my mum and sister are both teachers and having witnessed the interactions said that their own instincts were kicking in too and that the developing relationship wasn’t necessarily appropriate/he seemed a little over interested in kids.

Be thankful you have them in the family! Please listen to them.

You’d be surprised at what your mind sees without alerting your subconscious!

This is what your instincts are: completely unprocessed images, sound etc that you haven’t consciously paid attention too but have still been seen and therefore I would say always proceed with caution. Don’t go in shouting paedo (not that I expect you’ll do that anyway) but I’d maybe try to back away a bit

My heart goes out to you OP. You're a good mum and you already know what you need to do.

There has been some excellent advice here, especially being straight-up with BiL about your DD coming to an age where autonomy and personal space are a big deal.

Now comes the tricky bit of how to say it without fudging or wobbling. Can you practise with your mum and sister?

Your instincts are there for a very good reason. Trust them. Your daughter needs you to protect her. No one else will.

OP something you could do is sit down and think about and do a list of what would be ok and what wouldn't - eg no sitting on knees, no presents over £5 and just for birthday and xmas, no going out of sight, etc - write exactly what you are and are not comfortable with so that you are clear in your own mind - and use that list as the basis of the rules which you can discuss with your partner and his brother. I really wouldn't be apologetic about it - just explain diplomatically and nicely that everyone has boundaries and you have thought about it and your boundaries for your dd (as obviously you are setting her boundaries) are xyz. And tell dd the rules and be firm and work through the tantrums, while also doing work with her about the pants rule. I am not sure I would make it a big safeguarding conversation initially, more to do with rules and boundaries, to make it less contentious. But still keep thinking about it from a safeguarding perspective.

The NSPCC video someone posted looks really good.

I do agree that being a single 31 year old male isn't in itself a reason to not get someone to babysit. But like pp think you should trust instincts with this particular man.

I read the OP and thought hmmm it feels “off”. Err on the side of caution.

He seems too interested in a child he isn’t even related to.

I’m just trying to compare with children in our family who either DH or I are unrelated to. I’ve been with DH for 8 years and I can’t say DH is particularly interested in my nephews and nieces. He’s friendly but not physical. Similarly regards DH’s nephews and nieces, I may give a hug on greeting and enjoy their company but the brother’s behaviour seems way over the top. My DH isn’t even anywhere near like your DH’s brother with his own actual 3 y o niece.

Outlined the issue to my DH just now and before I even got to the end, he went 'Woah, totally inappropriate! I would not let this guy near our DC'. He thought it was really odd and a bit creepy that this guy was pushing for alone time and baby-sitting. As I said before, this is not some general debate but your own DD. We don't have to be nice and enable potential predators. They really do come in all guises. He might be harmless but why take the risk for your child!

Haven't read the whole thread, just OP's posts in a hurry.

My five year old keeps hugging people, especially men, often without knowing them. We're actually getting quite concerned about it as it's not appropriate and she's getting to an age where she really needs to stop. I have a friend with an 8 year old girl doing the same who's been told by the leaders at the kids beaver group that it's really quite concerning and could be some kind of attachment issue. If you need to get this man to back off then maybe that's a line you could use. She's never known her real dad, problems with attachment issues, preschool staff are concerned (or if you've got SS involved you could say it was them). I just thought it could give you an angle to get this man to back off without having to openly accuse him of anything.

I know nothing about grooming, but I would be worried too.

Threepointonefour, that’s it. She is very nearly 4 and I am aware that her nestling up to near-strangers appears odd and that it sets a bad precedent for her future. I can honestly say that I have done my absolute best— despite the lack of bio dad she’s been in the bosom of my family since she was born, she’s never wanted for anything, we have a great bond and routine and I’ve always given her affection and attention. It kills me to think I’ve given her some attachment issue. How do I begin to solve that? I’m hoping that as she grows she will be able to understand those boundaries more.

It is tough to think that when I broach this with dh I don’t think he will take it well. He is very protective of his family and I think he will be sensitive about this as it’s his brother. Also he likes to have a say with dd and he does often have a good point. With his family— They all have the party line that he’s so great with kids, it’s become a joke- like she won’t go to my dh when his brother is around. To me that’s just odd. Dh is her father figure and is so hands on with her. It’s all just odd and I want it to go away but it also makes me think- any kids we have, I wil face an even trickier issue.
However, I honestly don’t care in the scheme of things. Boundaries are ok and I wish someone had told me that when I was a kid.