Does this sound like grooming? Please help- step uncle

[Lam23]

Posting for traffic/I’m not sure where else this belongs..
Background if it helps: I’m a mum of a nearly 4 year old. She is very bright, happy, outgoing, completely normal development wise and attends nursery full time. I met dh when she was 2 and they have a great relationship, which has grown over time, i can honestly say I really trust him and she has started to call him daddy which feels natural for us all. Her dad has never been in the picture and we have no contact with him.
I have recently begun to have real worries about her relationship with my dh’s brother. He is 31, unmarried, no kids. Generally quite an immature guy (loves gaming, works minimum wage job and lives in a flat share) but seems pleasant enough since I’ve known him. However, since he met dd at a family gathering probably a year ago, alarm bells are ringing for me more and more and I don’t know if it’s instinct or paranoia. Every time he sees her he picks her ups lot, tickles her, cuddles her, he addresses her as “friend” (seems odd for a 3 year old), he always buys her extravagant presents whenever we see him. She is a trusting kid and I’m beginning to think, too trusting- because of all the positive attention he gives her (and maybe because she lacked a “dad figure” the first couple years of her life?) she absolutely loves him, talks about him loads, nowadays whenever he is there at a family gathering she just wants to go to him and has a tantrum if I say no or keep her next to me. It seems really excessive that she is so into him and that he had instigated this type of relationship with her- dh’s sister, who has kids, has what I would consider a more normal relationship with my dd and is lovely to her but definitely doesn’t push the boundaries. He has now offered to babysit a few times and I refuse point blank each time which I think dh is a little upset by (dh idolises his brother and I can’t talk to him about ANY of this). It happened again yesterday with lots of cuddling, sitting on his knee. My own brothers don’t do this with my dd and I feel like I can’t put a stop to it, but she is so trusting and I don’t know how to protect her. Whenever she needs a male figure she seems to get overly attached anyway, but for me this is going too far. She doesn’t want to be near me or dh when his brother is around, the amount of presents makes me uncomfortable and I feel like the physical stuff in public is a possible first step of grooming. Can anyone please help me understand what to do, it’s a really sensitive situation. Does this sound odd? I would appreciate anyone who knows about signs of grooming etc to weigh in. Do I sound crazy?
Fwiw my mum and sister are both teachers and having witnessed the interactions said that their own instincts were kicking in too and that the developing relationship wasn’t necessarily appropriate/he seemed a little over interested in kids.
Please help, this is stressing me out so much whenever we are around family.

When it comes to your kids always trust your instincts, they are nearly always right. After all it’s better to be safe than sorry

If you think talking to your husband is going to cause too much offence/ trouble (after all you could be mistaken) just make sure you supervise them at all times, if an occasion for him to babysit comes up- make an excuse. Always trust maternal instincts, they are there for a reason.

Thanks again everyone for all the insights and advice. I am also sorry for implying that catholics=abusers. I am not entirely sure why I said it. I’m also really sorry to everyone who has had experiences of abuse as children, I hope that you have all been able to find some peace as adults, for me it is a work in progress and I think it affected a lot of my adult life but I am determined to try and shield my dd from toxic people and situations. To this point I have begun to slightly question my dh and our relationship as a result of thinking about this issue because a lot of what has been said about dysfunctional families rings a bell and I cannot say 100% that he does have our best interests at heart compared to his family of origin. Similarly his db while possibly not dangerous also has some serious issues and I have every right to distance myself and dd as I see fit.
I do feel a lot of guilt about her earliest years. I went back to work at 6monthd after she was born as I couldn’t afford not to and I was working crazy hours in a demanding job to try and advance my career so we could have a good life. She spent a lot of time between mine and my mums, and yes dh and I moved pretty fast which in hindsight was not necessarily in her benefit. I feel like I was so stressed and lonely as a young single mum that I possibly couldn’t have done anything differently but I do live with a lot of guilt and I want to make sure I do things right for her now. I have changed my hours radically and our lives are so different, I get to pick her up from nursery every day and we are very close, and I guess therefore she will hopefully be able to trust me as someone she can always come to and she will listen to the lessons about personal space, strangers and so on.
I am looking forward to a good bit of space from my ILs and also being more assertive with my dh in the knowledge that I am not wrong to speak my mind. Going away for the weekend with dd and my mum next week so I will chat more with her then and think more about the wider picture.
Honestly thank you everyone.

That fandom thing conditions a child so young to an acolyte role. It may also provide scenarios for BIL to propose acting out under his direction

This is a good point, a case I was involved in had a child who 'played Peppa Pig' with her uncle- it was eventually discovered what that meant.

(have changed details but stayed with same premise)

I'm seeing so many red flags in how you describe your DH's family's dynamics, OP. I think you're spot on with worrying that your DD is being groomed by this man. I also think other posters here are spot on in pointing out that your relationship with your DH is disconcerting, bearing in mind your walking on eggshells, his controlling tendencies, and so on.

That whole family is grooming you to accept their inappropriate behaviour. If that weren't the case you'd have said something to your BIL right from the start but instead, you're anxious not to offend or cause trouble.

What ever you do, do not have a child with your DH.

I think you have a hard road ahead of you. I think you need to start having some sort of counselling to work out where you are and how to move to a better place. I don't think your DH's family are ever going to be reasonable, nice people to be around, I don't think you'll ever be able to trust them, and I worry that your DH undermines you when it comes to how they treat you and your DD. Without his full support, your life is going to be untenable--and I don't think you're going to get any sort of real support from him.

I'm so sorry.

Oh--and if he's getting your DD interested in anime, be very, very wary. There's a lot of very worrying anime which normalises sexual behaviours between prepubescent girls and older men. It's horrific, but it's all presented in this wide-eyed, pretty cartoon form and I'm amazed it's allowed.

Have you actually spoken again with DH about his brother yet?

Good luck OP i hope it all works out well for you and your daughter.

This book is worth a read: www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B07CS4VG6F/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?_encoding=UTF8&btkr=1&tag=mumsnetforum-21

The author interviews sex offenders. She says no way would she leave her kids with a man who was single and more interested in being friends with children than adult relationships. Too high a risk.

It IS really tough to be assertive - easy for all of us to law down the law on here, not so easy when you're in a room full of people about to create a really embarrassing situation.

For me, I would be tackling it with DH as a precursor to really really REALLY limiting contact with the brother, to start - and as a go-along to that, setting out some new boundaries with regard to his family.

In this situation, what would give me the 'courage' to do it would be the knowledge that my aim wasn't to change him against his will, but to remove myself from the engulfing... and if he chose not to like that or agree, then the outcome would be me removing myself and DD from him.

So - 'I'm not happy with the dynamic. I like your family, but I don't at all like the closeness because some of it is very negative closeness - I feel slightly bossed around, I feel that my wishes aren't really respected, I feel as if your family see me as an addition to their family rather than us as independent adults. I want to change this and get a bit more distance, but healthy distance. I actually think this would be good for you too. It's quite hard for example seeing your brother feel that he can completely monopolise DD when I know how bullying he was to you as a child.'

(DH reacts with anger, blames you, manipulates)

You (after listening quietly) - 'Ok, it looks like we might want different things. I don't want to change you or your relationships with your family if they work for you, but they don't work for me.'

'We clearly want different things' is a VERY useful phrase.

She says no way would she leave her kids with a man who was single and more interested in being friends with children than adult relationships.

I'd say anyone who seeks special relationships with children.

When DS was at football school none of the coaches raised alarm bells for me because while it was clear they actually liked the kids and sought good relationships with them, I've never noticed any even remotely seeking special relationships or alone time. And I helped in the changing room too.

Fizzy thats exactly the kind of thing I want to say. He has previously accused me of being controlling and having a problem with him spending time with his family (the occasion he said this, he had gone awol and not come home til midnight absolutely steaming drunk after seeing his brother and it was in a long line of weekend-monopolising drinking sessions. He also was stroppy about me not wishing to spend the whole of Xmas at his parents house which is a 5 hour journey and anyway I wanted dd at home with her grandma and little cousins. When I said I wanted to attend 1 of 3 of his family events over a long weekend celebrating his nieces’ christening, he demanded to know why and I felt pressured to go to all 3 (with dd who had to spend it with adults she didn’t know, in pubs/restaurants). Furthermore we were not able to have the small wedding/elopement we wanted because of his mother’s wishes. And when I have asked him to stop sending constant photos of me and dd and giving a running commentary of everything we do all day every day to his family chat, he has also snapped at me. So in the light of day who is controlling?! By contrast he doesn’t make effort with my mum or sister when they come round and actually pulled a huge sulk in front of her last time we spent the day with my mum.
This frustration feels good and I know I DO deserve to have my wishes respected and this is how I need to frame the convo. It’s not just about his brother.

Lam, the more you tell us about your husband the more abusive and controlling he seems.

I don't think he's got your best interests at heart.

Telling you you're controlling because you're setting boundaries is really worrying.

I'm sorry. There are so many red flags about your husband in your most recent post that I don't know where to start.

@Lam23, yes do read this book

This book is worth a read: ]]

You can get it on the kindle app on your phone so you don't have to have it lying around. It's hard-hitting but essential reading for parents to enable them to protect their DCs

@Lam23 sorry the link didn't post:

amazon.co.uk%2Fdp%2FB07CS4VG6F%2Fref%3Ddp-kindle-redirect%3Fencoding%3DUTF8%26btkr%3D1%26tag%3Dmumsnetforum-21&xguid=01CYF4RRM7JSZ8S9Y435QXPG97&xuuid=2d6c55a08190880b392ea29e05826c94&xsessid=&xcreo=0&xed=0&sref=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.mumsnet.com%2FTalk%2Famibeingunreasonable%2F3523981-Does-this-sound-like-grooming-Please-help-step-uncle%3Fwatched%3D1%26msgid%3D85385710%2385385710&pref=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.mumsnet.com%2FTalk%2Famibeing_unreasonable%2F3523981-Does-this-sound-like-grooming-Please-help-step-uncle%3Fpg%3D17&xtz=0&jv=13.13.7-stackpath&bv=2.5.1]]

Not trying to make this about dh or my relationship but tbh this thread has helped me to see that this is a lot about me and my lack of ability to assert my own boundaries. That is very helpful as feels like something that I can change by myself without any guilt.

He sounds awful!

Look at the Freedom Programme, you can do it online. And talk to your DD about the PANTS rule.
freedomprogramme.co.uk

www.nspcc.org.uk/preventing-abuse/keeping-children-safe/underwear-rule/

Lam, I hope I haven't upset you--I know you weren't asking about your husband here. But it's all connected. His constantly pushing at your boundaries, his brother doing the same. There's nothing wrong with you and by telling you there is, they're both trying to engulf you in their own dysfunctions.

There are a few resources that I've found useful. The first is Captain Awkward, whose blog is very useful in learning how to deal with difficult people. I think you said upstream that it was difficult to deal with things in the moment because of causing embarrassment or discomfort: CA deals with that beautifully. Her feeling is that we're socialised to avoid that embarrassment, so people without scruples use that to corner us, and to ensure that we don't speak out.

The second is a man on YouTube: Dr Les Carter. He talks mostly about the problems caused by narcissistic family members but he gives very good advice on how to manage your own behaviours without getting sucked into all the drama. Again, very useful.

I hope you find a way through this that protects your child without having to cause problems between you and your husband but if that's not possible, I know you'll protect your child.

OP, when you take some time away with DD, have a long talk with your mum and a good long think about the future. Looking at DH and his family from a distance may give you some clarity.

Did he and/or his family rush you into this marriage? Like some PPs, I feel it’s very quick to meet and marry in less than two years, especially for a single mum. I wonder if that’s what you really wanted or whether you were pressured in some way.

The situation is worrying for a lot of reasons, but you already know that your DD is the most important person in all of this. I know you’ll make the right decision for her.

I’d take fuzzies advice. Alarm bells ring for me for his families approach as my ILs started getting very close to our son. It ramped up after they decided to dislike me as DP left for a while, meaning that they now never visit and yet encouraged DP to visit every week with our DS without me. He’d then come back showered with presents from my SIL. DP has older child (my step daughter) - but they weren’t so interested.

So just even on this count, distance yourself. There is an unhealthy element of them showering your very young child, who like mine, is young and suggestible and lets face it, can’t say no, is pliable. It’s an overbearing assertion of dominance. My SIL was getting unhealthily involved and combined with the dislike of me, I was just VERY uncomfortable.

I tried taking to DP. That backfired as his family excluded me even more whilst wanting DS round even more. To the extent that DP was having to apologise if he didn’t and all blamed me and started to say that I was controlling and needed help. SIL stirred up very bad trouble in my relationship and started to act like his mother. Undermining me, bullying me effectively. She influences his whole family and they all ignore me and are not nice at all. DS has SN so he’s a particularly vulnerable boy who frankly needs to be able to trust his own mother 100% and not be poisoned.

So... this is very insidious unhealthy behaviour all round OP. And in your case, she’s your DD so you do have complete control here. Complete. Take it. DD is not to go around to your ILs full stop. If they want to visit, keep it short, and keep totally being the boss of your daughter.

Then gage their reaction and your DPs. If they start to get cross, aggressive, persuasive, keep on. RED FLAG. I would leave the relationship. If they accept this, with a minimal of fuss, there might be a future.

In my case, I stopped arguing about them, against ILs. What I did do was to totally be in charge of DSs time. As he’s their relation, I can’t totally stop contact. I very, very rarely let DP have him on his own. However, I clearly that they need to come to my house to see him. It’s revealing that they never come here. As they don’t want to see DS - they want to control him.

Even without this uncle on the scene, it's still the right time to start an age appropriate chat about boundaries, secret-keeping, and bodily autonomy. Luckily he's also always hated affection by anyone except mum and dad so part of that was I never insisted he kiss or hug anyone in the family.
I was groomed and sexually assaulted at that age but thankfully it was a rather clumsy affair on the part of the abuser and my mother quickly realised something was off and removed me from his presence permanently.
So when I had my own child the dangers of that all flooded back and I wanted to make sure that my son never experiences what I did, hence the chat.

And if you want another angle to see if it sinks home with DH, I suggest that you frame it as instilling boundaries that protect the brother - in that, while his actions may be innocent (and few of us believe that but your DH might listen if you present it this way) that she's at an age where a chance remark to nursery or school about her uncle could trigger a child protection investigation and that that could be very detrimental to his career in law enforcement.

At age 6 now DS is getting more savvy with tablets we are talking about uninstalling you tube altogether and only having a locked down kids tablet with netflix on it - and also reducing screen time. Even watching 'safe' anime is not something I'd be happy with because it's usually viewed on an unsecured platform like you-tube so she could quickly and easily come across the less suitable kind on a sidebar.

Thanks newfone. I do think dh will argue that his dB hasn’t done anything that would trigger suspicions about him (eg if she made a remark at nursery.) It’s just the sense of monopolisation at family events, the readiness of physical contact and the fact he calls her “friend” and gives her a lot of gifts etc. Having read about grooming it’s that stage of earning trust. To dh it just is his amazing brother being great with kids. I honestly believe his family feel they are the exemplar of family behaviour. That’s why it would be tough to frame it to him and I get the feeling I need to be more direct.

Guessing you will do this anyway but stress to your dd that none of this is her fault. She's not doing anything wrong but adults are showing bad judgment. Which adults can do.

And if you want another angle to see if it sinks home with DH, I suggest that you frame it as instilling boundaries that protect the brother - in that, while his actions may be innocent (and few of us believe that but your DH might listen if you present it this way) that she's at an age where a chance remark to nursery or school about her uncle could trigger a child protection investigation and that that could be very detrimental to his career in law enforcement.

I lovveee this idea !

Perhaps you can come up with a story about how in nursery they were teaching them about safeguarding and grooming and the daughter starter mentioning to you about the uncle and going into details that might be misinterpreted and jeopardize the poor fella and how as a young child she doesn’t distinguish.

Then polish it by saying how you think it is healthy anyway that she developed boundaries around men as around this age she is vulnerable and you are proud of her that she shares all those details and don’t want to stop her , but you are worried about the poor bil future career.

I would say that to the bil. As a passive aggressive warning in case he was actually up to no good. He would know that nothing is kept a secret and the girl is telling the planet.

Insist no touching and ticking and no secret time together .