Does this sound like grooming? Please help- step uncle

[Lam23]

Posting for traffic/I’m not sure where else this belongs..
Background if it helps: I’m a mum of a nearly 4 year old. She is very bright, happy, outgoing, completely normal development wise and attends nursery full time. I met dh when she was 2 and they have a great relationship, which has grown over time, i can honestly say I really trust him and she has started to call him daddy which feels natural for us all. Her dad has never been in the picture and we have no contact with him.
I have recently begun to have real worries about her relationship with my dh’s brother. He is 31, unmarried, no kids. Generally quite an immature guy (loves gaming, works minimum wage job and lives in a flat share) but seems pleasant enough since I’ve known him. However, since he met dd at a family gathering probably a year ago, alarm bells are ringing for me more and more and I don’t know if it’s instinct or paranoia. Every time he sees her he picks her ups lot, tickles her, cuddles her, he addresses her as “friend” (seems odd for a 3 year old), he always buys her extravagant presents whenever we see him. She is a trusting kid and I’m beginning to think, too trusting- because of all the positive attention he gives her (and maybe because she lacked a “dad figure” the first couple years of her life?) she absolutely loves him, talks about him loads, nowadays whenever he is there at a family gathering she just wants to go to him and has a tantrum if I say no or keep her next to me. It seems really excessive that she is so into him and that he had instigated this type of relationship with her- dh’s sister, who has kids, has what I would consider a more normal relationship with my dd and is lovely to her but definitely doesn’t push the boundaries. He has now offered to babysit a few times and I refuse point blank each time which I think dh is a little upset by (dh idolises his brother and I can’t talk to him about ANY of this). It happened again yesterday with lots of cuddling, sitting on his knee. My own brothers don’t do this with my dd and I feel like I can’t put a stop to it, but she is so trusting and I don’t know how to protect her. Whenever she needs a male figure she seems to get overly attached anyway, but for me this is going too far. She doesn’t want to be near me or dh when his brother is around, the amount of presents makes me uncomfortable and I feel like the physical stuff in public is a possible first step of grooming. Can anyone please help me understand what to do, it’s a really sensitive situation. Does this sound odd? I would appreciate anyone who knows about signs of grooming etc to weigh in. Do I sound crazy?
Fwiw my mum and sister are both teachers and having witnessed the interactions said that their own instincts were kicking in too and that the developing relationship wasn’t necessarily appropriate/he seemed a little over interested in kids.
Please help, this is stressing me out so much whenever we are around family.

Don't ignore your instincts! DSis and I suffered SA as a child, from a young age. My DM had an uneasy feeling about one of our abusers, but all she did was tell us not to go to his hotel room because we were annoying him.

How about this :

“Dear BIL, I’m concerned for my daughters well being as she is at a vulnerable age and I heard horror stories of girls around her being groomed by men and resulting in abuse.

My daughter tells me every nitty gritty detail of your interactions together and while I know you mean well, but because she looks up to you and sees you as an uncle figure, her perception of your interactions with her is normalising for her what she should accept from strangers.

I tend to find it very uncomfortable for her to feel she could have exclusive relationships with adults without involving me, and I felt she has become rather obsessed with having her little secret relationship with you. While this is so sweet to watch but knowing that my daughter is starting to behave this way with many adult men too, I prefer If we as a family start teaching her what is acceptable and what’s not.

Therefore, I’m trying to teach her to not accept to be with any stranger man without having my permission. To not accept her body be touched and tickled. To not Ben treated like a toddler and put in someones lap. To not accept gifts unless it was passed by me first by the giver in question.

This is for her own safety. When you have daughters one day you will know where I’m coming from.

• say this infront if the sil and DH.

Sorry not RTFT but ....Just out of interest, you talk about the mum being like it and I wonder if there’s a culture of learned behaviour either around previous deprivation or loss or something else. For example, my Nana was well known for spoiling her grandchildren because she had been so poor as a child and never had any money to spare when her kids were growing up, but by the time she had grandchildren she had a few quid and would almost compulsively spend on us because she hadn’t had anything as a child. Similarly, on the other side my great-grandparents lost an aunt of mine very young after she died of cancer. From then on little girls were worshipped within the family, and the culture has persisted on that side, even amongst people who didn’t know the dead girl, so lots of language like girls being “angels” and lots of spoiling them. Often these things can go back generations and have unexpected roots.

I tend to find it very uncomfortable for her to feel she could have exclusive relationships with adults without involving me, and I felt she has become rather obsessed with having her little secret relationship with you

I get where you’re coming from but I would not say this - if he is grooming her then he will know he’s on the right track getting her to keep some things secret. Much better to talk about how you and your DD have no secrets from each other, and make sure this is the case.

Sink you are right. Let’s brainstrom.

This is such a tricky situation OP. I wish you all the best and I admire your strength in wanting to deal with it

I wonder if the ‘cartoon interest ‘ is about creating forced teaming. “Here’s something that the two of us share, mum doesn’t understand “ . An excuse to buy her more gifts and be alone with her.

Also your story about BIL at the family gathering made me think of this.

I’ve a friend who is a social worker, hes also a long serving leader in a well know youth organisation. Some years ago it came out that one of the adult male leaders had been sexually abusing the boys while they were at the youth group and on residential camps. The man was convicted and sent to prison.

Of course, all the other leaders spent a long time going over all their memories and wondering why no one had spotted anything, especially those who work in safeguarding like my friend and Other who were teachers or foster carers.

The ony thing they remembered was that the other leaders thought The perpetrator was immature, as he didn’t socialise with the other adults but hung out with the kids all the time, even when it was free time and all the other leaders were relaxing with a coffee in the staff room. He wasn’t friends with the leaders, he was friends with the kids.

Even in evenings on residentials, when some of them would stay in turn and others nip off to the pub ( this was some years ago ! ) , this man would always volunteer to wait behind.

That was the ony red flag any of them could think of. But of course no one saw it at the time.

Why are you teaching a three year old to be wary? The main problem is you married into a family whose family dynamic you’re not overly keen on. Your H doesn’t sound particularly mature and you’re trying desperately to fix him/ a family dynamic that you have no control over.

You are DD’s parent, which means you enforce the boundaries on her behalf.

OP I haven’t read the whole thread but all I would say is that anyone who truly had children’s best interests at heart would never be offended by appropriate parental boundaries and would always support the parents and want to follow whatever they asked regarding their children.

Never, ever, ever let your DH, his brother or anyone else emotionally manipulate or guilt you into putting your DD is a situation where she is not protected. Studies have shown that the more removed a child is from her/his biological mother the more likely the child is to be abused. Nature has given you your instincts for a reason, to protect your child from harm.

Agree with Ida. Your natural instinct naturally kicks in when you are being excluded from an adult relationship with your daughter no matter who it is. You are the primary carer and whoever wants to dismiss that shouldn’t be trusted.

I absolutely wouldn’t trust any man or woman who tries to have any exclusive bond with my DC. Even if it was their own father.. it is only natural that for the child’s best interest a mothers instinct should be respected and proactively consulted.

I hope I don’t sound controlling. I don’t mean a mother should supervise everything.. but there are some people who go out of their way to make no effort to gain the parents trust before they push for alone time or even sneakily try to undermine your parenting with their pushy behaviour without any instigated reason or history of hostility...

When a child is being taught to ignore their primary carers instructions then that’s all manipulation to me. Isolating the child from their main source of support.

In my experience though, devout catholic families are more likely to keep anything like this as ‘family business’, ‘behind closed doors’ etc. I’m not saying that’s the case for all catholic families obviously, but I think it’s more that they are more likely to ‘close ranks’, not that they are more likely to be abusers in general.

@PreseaCombatir I'd like to believe that once you think this statement over, you'll blush and see it for the repellent and inflammatory attempt to smear an entire faith group that it is.

But no doubt you will come back with some credible research in faith communities that demonstrates why devout Catholics are more likely to aid and abet familial child abuse than devout Muslims, or devout High Church Anglicans, or atheists.

OP I haven’t read the whole thread but all I would say is that anyone who truly had children’s best interests at heart would never be offended by appropriate parental boundaries and would always support the parents and want to follow whatever they asked regarding their children

I would be utterly devastated if I received a letter such as the suggested one above and it would make me think that they suspected me of something.

This whole thing is just getting weirder.

I suspect he's absolutely fine - especially as you say his mum is very similar - but if you're too uncomfortable then it's fair enough that you get it all reined in a bit.

MIL liked ssecrets, it was as if she thought having a secret gave her power. She was constantly whispering into dd's ear, telling her to keep secrets etc. I explained to dh that dd needed to learn that people telling her to keep secrets was not a good thing, that she needed to feel free to tell us anything and everything. While we all knew MIL wasn't going to do anything awful herself, one thing we knew beyond doubt was that a paedophile would tell dd that things were secret.......... dh who had poo-pooed my worries before, actually blanched. He spoke to his mum and she stopped the bloody stupid secret-thing.

If you put it to them in such a way that it is clearly to safeguard dd from later harm, then it's much easier to get them to stop or to curb their behaviour.

evaperon I didn’t read the part about writing a letter. I am just talking about in normal interactions. If someone gets pouty and and stroppy when a parent puts in healthy boundaries (no excessive gifts, no sleepovers with single men etc,) then they clearly are emotionally immature and not putting the best interests of the child first.

Anyone who thinks it’s ok to undermine parental authority over a four year old is waving a big red flag.

@FizzyGreenWater that's a brilliant post.

OP do not get pregnant and do not let your H be responsible for contraception. You have your eyes wide open now. Look carefully at how things work.

This uncle needs to earn your trust and isn't going about it in a convincing way for you your mother or your sister. If he is genuine then he will have exactly the same interests at heart re your wee girl as you do i.e. horrified at the thought of anyone hurting a hair on her head and more than happy to agree to any reasonable requests you make. And if he isn't so happy...?

Absolutely listen to your senses - my DD once got really intense bad vibes from a stranger walking just ahead as her along a street. She was so creeped out that she went into a shop to escape and the shopkeeper pointed out the man and said he had just been released from prison for killing his wife and kids... Obviously not quite the same but more justification for listening to your instincts especially as a mother. Keep your guard up and upsetting people is a secondary consideration - genuine people will understand.

I'd like to believe that once you think this statement over, you'll blush and see it for the repellent and inflammatory attempt to smear an entire faith group that it is.

I definitely won’t be blushing.
As I said, in my experience
And tend to
I’ve seen it a lot. People relying more on what the priest tells them than their own common sense.

OP I read back a few pages. I am also a Catholic and his family’s behaviour is nothing to do with being Catholic, it’s just common or garden dysfunction that you can find in any society or culture.

I also married DH quite quickly (within a year) and we have been married 22 years. I also found (especially because his family were in another country) that meeting and getting to know your potential future in-laws is very important. I also learnt after the fact that my DH comes from a very enmeshed family where they are constantly (to my mind) in each other’s pockets and it is just not allowed to be separate from the group, they do everything together even the most simple things. You will be berated and guilted if you try to do anything without the full and constant involvement of MIL especially.

DHs parents are divorced and both can be very overbearing and try to dominate constantly. My DH is worshipped by his mother and at first she was very excited that he was getting married but quickly grew to resent me, as I don’t think it occurred to her that her son would have a separate life and his wife would have her own mind. Thankfully DH told me as soon as we got married that he didn’t want to live in his parents city and we live hundreds of miles away (not in the UK). We also relocated abroad for many years of our marriage. This has all been a huge blessing as we have been able to raise our children without the constant interference and pressure that my MIL tried to enforce.

My youngest child is 12 years old. Two weeks ago he flew to MILs city with his dad and they drove to the mountains and went skiing. On his return my son said to me “mum, dad’s family really have potty mouths” I laughed and said “really?”. He then went onto describe constant bickering and verbal fights between female adults who were in their 60s and 70s (MIL is one of 5 sisters). He even said that when he and his dad pulled up at his grandma’s she was having a full on blazing, screaming match with a younger relative. I asked him how he felt about that and he said that he expected it. I think this is because in the past I have warned my kids that if that side of the family ever start to argue or fight in a way they find uncomfortable they always have my full permission to leave the room! And if necessary ask their dad to take them back to the hotel. My son also said they were constantly on Facebook posting photos and commenting, even when sitting at the same table. Again, most of the people he is talking about were 60+ not teenagers.

He loves his grandma and extended family but I am grateful that we have not seen too much of them until our 3 kids were old enough to discern inappropriate behaviour. Of course MILs narrative is that they have a warm loving healthy family and they are completely paranoid about everyone outside the family. It is very much “us” against “them”. Of course because I put normal boundaries in place I quickly became one of “them” but that has always been ok with me. I would rather that my children not grow up with their boundaries violated where you are never allowed to disagree with MIL, you not allowed privacy and any separateness from the family is seen as a betrayal. I don’t over analyze, I just stay away and have always protected my children no matter who was offended. Now my kids have strong boundaries and self-respect and they can clearly see how our family is different from grandma’s and they can set their own boundaries and have good relationships with everybody.

Do not let your DH’s family overwhelm or bully you, or try and redefine what is normal and acceptable to you. Listen to your instincts and keep a healthy sense of self and always put your daughter’s well-being absolutely front and center.

Many abusers have been abused.
The BIL seems to have many issues.
He has an overprotective family (all the great with kids stuff - why is this such a big deal, why push it so much, he should be marrying and settling down in any usual catholic family), he bullied his brother for years (perhaps DH was in his eyes the lucky brother who wasn't abused?), he self medicates (drinking as much as he does at his age suggests he has demons of some sort to deal with), he is the golden boy (why? is DM compensating for something?), he avoids adults he doesn't know, or at least is uncomfortable with them, is he shy or ashamed or what? he has chosen a career which gives him power over others and requires confidence so that doesn't gel with avoiding adults.
He has formed too close a relationship with DD, normal adults are good with DCs and give them some attention but not excluding others or introducing special interests, he is behaving in a way which is drawing in DD, for her to favour him over you is unusual - has BIL learnt this behaviour somewhere?
I could be barking up the wrong tree but there was an incident in our extended family and the DM favoured the abused child for their whole life, to compensate probably, and your posts suggest similar to me.

Trust your instincts.

Wow, Catholics getting bad press here. I'm Irish and although I'm not Catholic myself I think it is power and secrecy and 'wounded' individuals who seize opportunity that are the basis of abuse. The ''Catholicism'' could be ''Scouting'' for example.

I don't know why but I'd be really uncomfortable with the anime thing.

As someone who is married to a Golden Child, it is a poisoned chalice. In my reading I found something I read to ring so true, the family is structured to look as if they are built around the Golden Child and that they are the center of attention. However this is in a fact a deceptive lie. The real center of the family is the one who created this dynamic, in DHs case, his mom. She is really the true Golden Child and DH was raised to make her look good and to meet all her needs (literally, she expected us to buy her a house). She is the instigator of emotional-incest, this is where a parent expects a child to fulfil the role emotionally of the romantic partner. She crossed so may emotional boundaries with my husband and often behaves as if she is married to him. Very unhealthy. Thankfully living far away has created the boundary that my husband was not allowed to create growing up.

If your husbands family has a Golden Child, you need to pay attention to who created the dynamic and what they gain from it. Someone gave everyone in the family roles and that is by definition a dysfunctional family because people are not free to be themselves they are forced to play a role. There is a good chance your DH and his brother feel under pressure to please someone and they will throw you and your dd under the bus if necessary to please that person. It will be very threatening to the family dynamic if you don’t play along and accept your role. So you need to shore yourself up with healthy relationships and don’t see his family more than necessary.