Is it offensive or am I being silly?

[CocaColaaa]

Just a quick one but NC for this as I guess its outing.

My childrens school are doing world book day and the “theme” is peter pan, its given some suggestions of characters you can dress up as and one is tigerlilly. I was thinking of chosing that one for DD as I hate all of the tinkerbell dresses but ive heard its offensive to dress up as certain things. Native americans being on of them. Is it offensive or am I being silly? Why oh why do they have to do themes and not just let people pick their favourite book characters 😩

I mean if I wanted to create a short video about the history of butchers. I'd probably choose to talk to some actual butchers first to learn more, but no, apparently the first people I should talk to are the life long vegans.

Oh so you don’t like Giles Coren so his perspective on being a Jew accused of anti Semitism doesn’t count. OK. That’s pretty racist in my book.

You could always start another thread, complete with the text that many of us cannot see, rather than trying to divert this one?

It's like the occasional, strange individual(if they exist) who famously decides that it's offensive to Muslims and Jews to celebrate Christmas so we won't do that. Just because someone, well meaning or not, made an erroneous assumption and took things too far does not mean that we should say 'Well this particular thing is a non issue so clearly all racism is a non issue.'

To the poster who accused me of not watching the videos, you are simply wrong. My comments refer to details from the videos - impossible to do without watching them.

It’s hardly diverting the thread of 30 odd pages of people being grossly offended on behalf of a different race or culture. It’s a graphic illustration of what can happen when people do that. And it’s written off as “bonkers or mistaken”, minimised in the way others are accused of doing. Yet any inference that someone on this thread is “bonkers or mistaken” is racist.

Logic is in pretty short supply round here.

“Oh so you don’t like Giles Coren so his perspective on being a Jew accused of anti Semitism doesn’t count. OK. That’s pretty racist in my book.”
I would very much like to read the article. Is it available anywhere?

'Logic is in pretty short supply around here.'

You're right. Hence all the 'But they didn't mean us. They don't really mean that. They aren't actually
Hurt and upset' in response to Indigenous people making their feelings pretty damn clear.

I will ask again, do the videos totally represent the views of your typical Native American man in the street? You are extrapolating massively so as not to let any alternative views get in the way of a good rant.
Nice example re Giles Coren. There are indeed plenty of anti Semites in this country. Many of them in the Labour Party. I am quite surprised that Jeremy Corbyn hasn't kicked up a fuss about the oppression of Native Americans, as he always likes a good bandwagon. (He also thinks transwomen are actually women so not the sharpest tool in the box)
As regards forgiving abuse, I think everyone has the capacity to change. The abusers are perpetuating a cycle of abuse, quite often.

I’ve tried to copy and paste it @Bertrand, the bloody firewall won’t let me.

To the poster who accused me of not watching the videos, you are simply wrong. My comments refer to details from the videos - impossible to do without watching them.

I do not understand how you could have watched the videos I posted, over one hour in total, in the few minutes it took between me posting and your claiming that the videos were not relevant.

Do you possess a time machine?

I obviously cannot speak for the 'average Native American' in the street but judging by the contents of 'Indian Country Today' a news site written by Indigenous people for Indigenous People, and other similar sites, then yes, the views would be generally similar. Also the Native Americans/First Nation peoples in the videos are also some of your average Native people. They aren't major celebrities that I'm aware of. Just because they have a voice on the internet in a few videos does not mean that they are not regular people.

“I will ask again, do the videos totally represent the views of your typical Native American man in the street? ”
How can anyone know? How do you know that the typical Native American in the street is as unconcerned as you think he is?

Please explain to me how it is possible to refer to the details of the videos, including quotating some of the contributors’ remarks, without watching them.

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/calling-me-a-racist-was-a-caricature-of-the-truth-bl3606q6t?shareToken=3b5de648f5a016f43e7ba49b2061aff3

And no. Even a group of Native People cannot speak for all individuals concerned because Indigenous people are clearly not a homogenous mass but it is still very clear that for a considerable minority of them if not a majority, that the continuing depiction of Indigenous people in this way is still an issue that concerns them.

God all this offended by everything gives me the rage! It's a kids costume ffs!

And Giles Coren may not be anti-Semitic but I'd still argue that he's a racist, misogynist and ableist. There's many examples on this twitter page. mobile.twitter.com/demarionunn/status/1046399439642996739

I'd also like to hear the opinion of native Americans, rather than people who it doesn't apply to. So many people are offended on a persons behalf but that person doesn't give a flying fuck about it!

“I'd also like to hear the opinion of native Americans, rather than people who it doesn't apply to.”

Easy Peasy. Loads of videos in this thread. Fill your boots.

So now we’re attacking Coren because his article proves a point that doesn’t agree with your narrative. And highlights the virtue signalling of vicarious offence taking.

There is no such thing as a "typical Native American man in the street".

There are hundreds of different tribes, each with their own spiritual and cultural beliefs.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_federally_recognized_tribes

This is one of the many reasons why native American fancy dress costumes are so offensive to native people, because they often mix and match elements of different cultures together in one costume.

The situation is further complicated by the fact that countless non-native people claim to be native chiefs, medicine men and women and steal and pervert elements of sacred ceremonies for their own financial gain.

Often, when a native American voice is needed for news reports journalists fail to ask genuine native people for their opinions and instead ask fake native people.

There are hundred of fake tribes, many consisting of scammers and racists.

The fact is that many times struggle with poverty, the emotional impact of genocide and multi-generationl trauma.

If people really genuinely wish native people well and would like to support them in recovering from the consequences of actual and cultural genocide then not dressing up or dressing your children up in "native American" themed fancy dress is just one small step.

The second thing to do it to start to educate yourself about the genocide of tribal and indigenous people all over the world and to fight against racism, oppression and cultural appropriation.

Exactly what some of us are trying to find out, Claira! But it's taking forever.

also see

Thank you for the link, All1ce. It's pretty short so there's little to go again but it's clear that there was more to it than was suggested. And yes that guest may have been mistakenly offended, though I'd have been on edge too after the unexpected Gollies, but just because he made an error does not mean that we decide that everyone who complains of racism is a fool and that it's no longer an issue.

As an aside I do hate it when I mistakenly leave my Gollywog figurine collection on full display when renting out my home. I'm always doing it. It's so easily done though.

Exactly what some of us are trying to find out, Claira! But it's taking forever.

So watch the videos that are made by or that depict the opinions of native people and, when you have educated yourself on the issue, come back and debate the issue from a place of being informed