Why are people still deluding themselves about Michael Jackson??

[waxahatchee]

If any grown man I know invited children to sleep in his bed with him there would be absolutely no question about what was going on. I am sure that most people would agree, why are so many people still deluding themselves about this?? Makes me so cross, why do they even play his music on the radio??

happyhillock
The media should leave the man alone, he's dead and can't defend himself, wether the allagations are true or not we'll never know

Do you think that about Jimmy Savile too? Genuine question. I don't understand why some people seem to give Michael Jackson a free pass.

Interesting too that both Macaulay Culkin and Corey Feldman have both had significant drug addiction issues in adolescence and adulthood. I doubt that Corey Feldman was abused by MJ, given that he is quite vocal about the abuse that he suffered as a child in Hollywood, but has never mentioned MJ's name in connection with that abuse, but I do wonder about Culkin.

Quite a few people thought Jimmy Savile should be left alone as he couldn’t defend himself

When so many people spoke out and then the report came out a few spoke out and apologised not all though

The impact of the Jimmy Savile case has been huge. I worked as a therapist at the time it allowed people to discuss the abuse they suffered particularly older clients more openly (and often very early in thwkr sessions rather than it being dropped in at the end) for many it was as though they had been given permission.

I think the MJ case will have a similar impact I hope so as no one needs to hide or carry the shame so often felt

There is generally very little evidence in terms of historical sexual abuse.

Thing is;
A. He went through a trial regarding this and was found innocent.
B. There seems to be zero evidence.
C. Accusers have admitted lying at times.
D. He cant try and clear his name again after this new doc due to being dead.
However. Many a child abuser has been convicted on little evidence.

The issue i have is, i can never be sure if he was a child abuser or just a child. His demeaner was so extremely child like, i cant imagine someone like that abusing children.

However im leaning towards believing maybe there is some truth in the allegations. I cant really say why.

Regardless of guilty or innocent, the parents of those children should be held accountable. Even if 'nothing happened' at these sleepovers and they were innocent events, no parent in their right mind should EVER allow their child to spend the night in a bed with a strange adult like that! Its just fucking weird!

I'm not sure quite what it says about me that I could never listen to the Lost Prophets these days without wanting to scrub myself, but have to confess that I do still enjoy Jackson's music. But he's dead. He's not going to benefit from any royalties.

People don't want to believe ill of public figures whose work they enjoy. But any adult male who thinks sharing a bed with a 12-year-old boy isn't a gross violation of appropriate boundaries is a danger to children. This would be true with or without any additional sexual abuse. There does, however, seem to be firm evidence out there that he watched child pornography too. This isn't the mark of a naive, childlike, innocent person. It's that of a clever, calculating, predatory person who has assumed that mask in order to gain easy access to children.

All else is speculation and boils the word of the victims, however much credence people do or don't want to attach to that. Socially, child victims' words receive far too little credence IMO - sadly the first response is often victim-blaming. But there's a consistency to the story here.

He was dangerous.

The documentary revealed the extent that people took advantage of him and used him to make money. It is a very good documentary -“Leaving Neverland” and was on Sky Arts a few days ago.

It is so glaringly obvious that he abused children.

Some of my favourite memories from childhood was listening to MJ with friends and family. I love his music. But, come on, you have to be seriously naive or in complete denial to believe he is innocent.

Tattyheadsmum- quite a lot of child stars go on to have addiction problems, it is usually a result of the industry they are in (Lindsey Lohan, drew Barrymore etc).
Is it a coincidence that Macaulay and Cory both had their own money and have nothing to gain or lose by accusing MJ of abuse, Yet have still been adament nothing untoward happened?

I think it's an utterly unfounded jump to say that bc Macaulay Culkin is/was an addict MJ abused him. He has numerous other documented things from his childhood that could cause mental health problems without having to speculate on new ones. (Insane success with little to no support system - his parents all but abandoned him, stole money from him ,etc, utterly toxic. He went NC with them, but remains close to the Jackson family.

The thing is often with child abuse there is no evidence if it happened years ago.

Then it's just tried on the victims testimony / character traits of the accused etc.

Jackson could afford good lawyers to help him - Bill from Newquay likely couldn't, do would more likely get a guilty verdict.

Let's also not forget innocent types can and do abuse children. Older children abuse younger children and those with severe learning difficulties abuse too.

I knew someone with severe learning disabilities that abused his nephew/niece/cousin they were 6-10 I believe. Most knew he was volatile and 'odd' but also quite child like.

He disclosed to me first and I often wonder how that poor family is getting on. He was found guilty but went to a specialist unit due to his disabilities.

I'm just putting it out there also that not all abusers are doing it because they want to hurt children or whatever. They may genuinely believe they want a romantic relationship with a child. Which of course is completely wrong and abhorrent as any abuse is, though the aim is not solely for the abuser to be aroused, or to punish children etc.

My opinion?

He did it. He was quite child like because he had a very turbulent, unnatural childhood. His mind is stuck in adolescent mode but his urges are that of an adult. He saw everything as an adventure and hoped he would finally feel complete but alas, he did not.

It's a tragedy about his childhood and even more a tragedy he committed these acts and managed to do so for so long.

I'm sure there are loads of law firms that would have taken a case probono if they thought they had a chance in hell of winning. They would have made such a name for themselves / gotten excellent coverage

I would have thought MJ would have probably identified both Macaulay Culkin and Corey Feldman he was quite open about how he struggled with fame at an early age.

He may have seen them differently to how he saw the boys he abused and had good a supportive friendship with them (I don’t think they knew or suspected they were very young themselves and can only go on their own experiences so of course it’s hard for them to accept that he did abuse other boys)

@Grumblepants, by whose definition do they have "nothing to gain or lose"? I'd say they have a lot to lose, given how they've seen other MJ accusers have been treated. And if they come out and say something now, they will be asked why they didn't say anything before from their privileged positions, thereby potentially protecting other children from abuse.

Re the unfounded jump from abuse to addiction, I'm a sucker for a scientific study (www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6892324)

Abstract
Social histories and demographic data were collected on 178 patients101 in the United States and 77 in Australiain treatment for drug/alcohol addiction. The purpose of the study was to determine the degree to which a correlation exists between child abuse/neglect and the later onset of drug/alcohol addiction patterns in the abuse victims. The questionnaire explored such issues as family intactness, parental violence/abuse/neglect, parental drug abuse, sibling relationships and personal physical/sexual abuse histories, including incest and rape. The study determined that 84% of the sample reported a history of child abuse/neglect.

It's funny how we support women who are abused with #webelieveyou but young boys are to be ignored because they are accusing a famous person people liked

I believed Anthony Rapp (Kevin Spacey)
I believed Cesar Sanchez-Guzman (Bryan Singer)
I believed Anthony Edwards (Gary Goddard)

The Jackson case is similar to that of Michael Egan (Goddard/Singer) in that in both cases the victim has been portrayed as unreliable/wanting cash/willing to perjure. Egan was also jailed for fraud and Sanchez-Guzman had his bankruptcy brought back up - in the same way that prosecution lawyers hope that more victims come forward, defence lawyers look for character assassination and/or procedural loopholes.

Lawyers screwed up then screwed over Egan (they planned to get around the statute of limitations in California by filing a civil suit in Hawaii, which has a law allowing civil actions in abuse cases where the statute of limitations has expired. Problem was - Singer had not been with Egan in Hawaii).

Young boys are not being ignored but the burden of proof and statute of limitations make it as hard to prosecute as for female victims of rape.

Michael Jackson's death did not open a floodgate of claims as Saville's did.
The timeline is as dodgy as him having sleepovers in the first place.
The documentary as far as I know does not present new evidence but gives sordid details instead. I watched the 2019 sixty minutes documentary on youtube that convinced a pp - the detail about vaseline being everywhere is disturbing enough to convince you but again, is hearsay...from a woman who has already perjured herself and been found guilty of fraud and malice (Mcmanus, the maid, still owes the estate and was sacked for stealing. She sold a sketch he had done which she fished out the trash and allegedly tried to sell his hair on e-bay).

There lies the problem:
sordid grim salacious details (vaseline/jesus juice/duck butter/exposed anuses) versus whether you have reliable witnesses coming forward - you can argue that the victims were well-chosen or you can argue that there is a shake-down: would Robson have made a documentary had he got the Cirque du soleil choreo gig?

All I know is that, Peter Pan or not, my kid would have not left my sight and I could not have been bought off with a sodding Cartier bracelet.

The issue i have is, i can never be sure if he was a child abuser or just a child. His demeaner was so extremely child like, i cant imagine someone like that abusing children.

I suspect this was cultivated by the people around him, to some extent. Given that they couldn’t stop him seeking out the company of young boys it would’ve been safer to portray him as a big kid, playing gleefully at his theme park, speaking in a high voice. Much better than the pics of him with boys on his knee (which kids don’t do with each other) or pics of him in the same bed with boys.

We don’t know whether he was “childlike” in real life at all, only the persona that we were allowed to see.

So "they" are putting chemicals in water because of MJ?

Have you?

Are you talking to me @Devlinson ? About the books found in MJ's filing cabinet?

I've seen enough of what was reproduced from them to guess that you either you haven't seen them or you're an actual paedophilia apologist. Nobody of normal psychology and honest intent would describe them as "art history".

The thing is often with child abuse there is no evidence if it happened years ago.

The thing is, they were investigating him "years ago". They investigated him for 10 years. They searched from Neverland top to bottom, serving an unexpected warrant while Jackson was in Europe. They found nothing.

There isn't no evidence. He simply hasn't yet been convicted. There was enough evidence to get him to trial!!

Sexual abuse convictions are probably lower than rape.

Ss don't wait for a trial to conclude sex abuse has taken place. It isn't black and white

www.digitalmusicnews.com/2016/06/21/items-discovered-police-michael-jackson/

howis

Once I got to the Spider-Man socks on that list I felt like crying. That’s a horrible list.

and let's not ignore that there was a nude photo of one his 'boys' in that list too. Can't see how of his cult can explain that one away.

I've seen enough of what was reproduced from them to guess that you either you haven't seen them or you're an actual paedophilia apologist.

@colehawkins

That's a shitty comment to make, and I'd urge to to retract it.

No. I haven't seen the images in the book, there's absolutely no need for me to have. I don't need to have seen the images within it to know it's bloody horrifying. It's a photo book, apparently based on Lord of the Flies.

The book you're referring to wasn't part of the 2005 investigation, and nor is it the art history book that I referred to as having been entered into evidence in the resulting trial. You're referring to The Boy, which was found in a locked filing cabinet in 1993 (the investigation into the Jordy Chandler allegations, in which 2 grand juries refused to indict based on lack of evidence).

It was sent to him by a fan in 1991 with the inscription “From your fan, xxxooo, “Rhonda”. 1983 Chicago”. Rhonda was in quotes. The book was kept in a locked file cabinet where it stayed for two years, until the file cabinet was opened during the police raid of Neverland in 1993.

The person who brought the key to the cabinet was former Neverland maid Blanca Francia who left Jackson's employment two years prior to the raid, in 1991, and ultimately made a buttload of cash shopping stories to the media. She'd kept the key all that time. Bit weird but sure. The book then stayed in police custody.

Yes he owned it. Did he buy it? Seems unlikely based on the inscription. All of his computer hard drives were searched and nothing was found. His entire home turned upside down and all they found was this book, in a locked cabinet that his disgruntled maid had the only key to.