To be annoyed at The Guardian largely because it is such a dump solution - private schools

[Dlwch276]

So as part of their recent excessive coverage of a book which attacked the private school system (written by someone who went to private school) The Guardian has suggested adding VAT to school fees.

Asides raising more money via tax i don't see how this would make the system fairer? From what I've seen the logic is that parents who are motivated to pay £20k+ on fees would force state schools to improve if their children attended them. Mumsnet is full of posters at their wits ends trying to affect change at their local state schools. No-one that I've met at our small private is wringing their hands that the local state schools are terrible and that this gives their children extra advantage.

Surely to improve educational equality either we all need to pay more tax to change class sizes or poorer students need better access to private education. In NZ private schools receive the same student allowance as state schools - wouldn't this be a better solution for students not able to access private education? For everyone to sit the entrance exam and then private schools to have to accept the student allowance as fees for those who can't afford it?

Sorry should say dumb solution - urgh.

It's motivated by envy and a stupid idea.

I totally agree with you. My DC go to a private school (I work there so get reduced rates). What you will find is that the richer parents just fork out more, and the exceptionally talented children who rely on a 90% bursary will pull their child out and no difference whatsoever will be made to state schools, but less well-off children will be disadvantaged. It just puts more barriers in place but without the advantage of benefitting anyone else elsewhere

I haven't read it but surely if they add VAT to fees then more people will send their children to state school and they will be even more over crowded and stretched. How do they plan to force the school to improve and even if they could force it then it would take time and in the meantime everybody would be worse off. Have they thought this through?

Doesn't it just mean state schools will have to find places for even more kids?

Here is the article: www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/feb/12/the-guardian-view-on-private-schools-motors-of-unfairness

This is a Corbyn policy isn't it? He wanted to use the VAT on private school fees to pay for free primary school meals for all. I'd simply be taking mine out and our already overstretched state primaries would have to find spaces for them - along with about 50% of their cohort.

Obviously I'd be using the money saved on fees to buy one of the overpriced houses within the 80m catchment of the best one.

Like so many of Corbyn's great ideas, it's not been very well thought through.

Quite edwin. Too eager to appear to be a Robin Hood type character without giving much thought to the consequences (and his band of merry men don't usually either)

The underlying point is that private schools are elitist, so I’m not sure that the solution is to increase the price of tuition and exclude those middle income parents who are stretching themselves to send their children there. The very rich will still continue to use the system and it will be more elitist. The schools in my areas are so bad (and rated in the league tables as average!!) that if I could I’d send my dd to private school. I’m also not sure what’s not elitist about better off parents being able to buy houses in areas with good schools either. The whole education system is a mess.

Private school would never have been an option for my parents and it will never be an option for our DC. Even if we were loaded, we still wouldn't consider it.

However, for those who do choose it, they've already paid a load of tax towards state school places to which their children are fully entitled, but which they are not occupying. Also, the overwhelming likelihood is that a family who can afford private school will already contain at least one high-earning, higher-rate taxpayer, who is already paying a lot in income tax.

Moreover, considering that a lot of parents scrimp to go private in desperation after they have reason (justified or not) to believe that state schools have failed their children (bullying etc), what a slap in the face it would be for them if the state fails to adequately deliver that for which they've already paid their taxes, thus forcing them to expensive alternative measures, and then seeks to effectively claim a reward for its own failure.

Therefore, I don't think that people should have to pay VAT on private school fees. In fact, there could be an argument (not one to which I would subscribe personally), that they should actually receive tax relief on school fees.

It's not exactly the same thing, but it's a bit like when desperate people, unable to countenance long NHS waiting lists, use their life savings or take out a huge loan to go private - and then are told that, as they have 'decided' to go private, the NHS will no longer treat them.

This is something that can only happen post-Brexit and when we are clear of current VAT rules (as it is an EU tax)

Making changes to VAT rather than just rolling it over, or introducing a whole new replacement consumption tax, may not be that high up the priority list of things that need tackling after we leave. But I expect this may well be coming in a few years

I may be projecting my own hope that no party will be reckless enough to fiddle ad hoc with post-EU tax regime but will instead bring in a coherent new system. I do realise that my hope may not be well-founded. But I would not want to have a DC in school in either sector in the years affected by such a major change, or at least not in the parts of the country where the proportion of DC privately educated is high and the scope for expansion of state schools is low - ie London. A clever politician would tack this change in to the end of the passage of the demographic bulge through the school, because the places created to deal with those numbers would help deal with the potential exodus from private schools)

Hmm. I fully accept the argument that if there were no private schools over night the whole education system would be even more fucked than it is now, but why private school fees are exempt from VAT when more essential things like san pro, gas and electricity (yes, yes, I know at a reduced rate), hot takeaway food and things like getting your boiler repaired are not.

I hugely disagree with this. I went to private school and had a small bursary. Had vat been on fees, there’s no chance my parents could have afforded it. I currently work at a private school, 70+% of pupils are on some kind of fee reduction. These are very hard working families who go without a lot of luxuries so that their child can go to this school.

I have also worked in several state schools, both high and not-so-high achieving, all of which were oversubscribed every year. If VAT goes on fees, parents will remove their kids and need spaces at state schools...there aren’t enough spaces for all of these children! And where will the money come from to provide for all these children when they move into the state sector?

Furhermore, once all these schools close there would also be thousands of teachers and other staff unemployed.

On top of the increase required of schools to go in teachers’ pensions (which, quite frankly, is ridiculous!), I can see lots of schools going into financial ruin, state and private alike.

It’s scandalous how little money is going into schools.

I think it's a myth that private school parents are the types who would be activist parents if they were displaced into the state system, and their presence there would make any difference at all to the quality of the education. If anything, I think parents who are used to paying for private education don't expect to have to chase and push and make things happen, because that is exactly what they are used to paying for. I they are unhappy with the private school, they tend to vote with their feet and go elsewhere. Of course this is a huge generalisation, but so is the argument that they would magically make a difference in the state sector.
I dislike paying taxes for school places that I haven't used for my children, but I accept that it is part of the price I have paid for private education. Putting VAT on school fees would be a disaster for many schools - quite a few would end up closing, and as PP said, the remaining ones would fill up with the privileged few who could afford the increased fees, further increasing the divide between the rich and poor.
Buying a house near a good state school is just another way of paying for your child's education in my view.

Just get rid of the lot.

If people genuinely wanted to sort out the problem with education, they’d get rid of them.

So many private schools were set up either for the dirt rich or dirt poor. I.e when things were very different and there was no middle class.

Now, we don’t have a level playing field, things are still unequal.

If rich politicians and unelected influential people had to send their schools to state schools then I fucking bet things would change.

Bibbitybobbity - I totally agree that all of those things should be a lot less expensive than they are (especially with some companies announcing increases soon which is scandalous too!). However, with tax relief it means schools can offer more bursaries/scholarships to help pupils who couldn’t otherwise afford it. At least 70% of our pupils have some kind of (fairly hefty!) fee discount.

It's an awful idea. But then again most of Corbyn's ideas are awful so this is nothing new.

It's completely born out of envy and really hasn't been thought through. Let's overload state schools and push up house prices around good schools as more people try to get places there, that's definitely fairer

It's so Corbyn though isn't it - not everyone can have nice things so let's deny everyone from having them. I really wish someone would think it through and encourage private schools to open up their bursary system even more so more children can go from disadvantaged backgrounds, but no, let's get rid of those opportunities

I want them to disappear. They are just a throwback to when we had gentry and serfs. However, I'm a realist and know that it can't happen overnight.

I was sent to the local comp by my Guardian reading parents. Mum became a parent governor. We were active members of the school community. I had an utterly miserable time. I was bullied for being bright, the school justified the bullying as 'character building' and when my mum voiced her concerns about the school (in particular the Head crowing about how great it all was) she was asked to step down from her governor role. It was a race for average, the lowest common denominator was played to, there was little ambition and little confidence instilled. In fact even half the teachers found my intelligence and confidence irritating (I was humiliated for getting full marks in a test). I was told I shouldn't bother aspiring to be a lawyer as my parents weren't wealthy enough to pay the law school fees.

I'm sending my kids to private school - no way I'm risking that for them for the sake of a social conscience. I've been a life-long labour supporter (and Guardian reader!) but Corbyn and McConnell have soured my affection for the party.

My dd attended a vocational dance school and there are also vocational music schools that are partly government funded on a needs blind basis.

VAT on school fees would also affect part time educational institutions such as tutoring centres or dance schools.

And I have no axe to grind. Ds had a terrible time at a private school and us now at a local comp where he is much happier.

The obvious solution is to charge wealthy parents who use state schools and pump that money back into the education system. If you try to make it even harder to access private education well educated high earning parents who pay high amounts of tax will just leave. We would if we were faced between moving to my coo or putting our children into a woefully under funded state school. It’s better for our children and better for the children who they would have taken resources from.

'm sending my kids to private school - no way I'm risking that for them for the sake of a social conscience

Ok, and what has the fact it was a state school got to do with your experience?

Your kids might have a terrible experience at private school.

"but why private school fees are exempt from VAT"

Because EU decided it was wrong to tax education in schools and universities and it does not happen in any EU country (except in crammers, where you buy individual courses rather than join an institution)

VAT is not a luxury tax, it is a general consumption tax. Bear in mind that if we did not have our old (essentially fossilised) exemption for staple foods, they would be subject to VAT - in may EU countries, all food is.

Post-Brexit, Westminster can remove VAT from sanpro - that would be a quick and easy change to make, and one which does not touch on any there issues.

Driven by jealously mostly.