To be annoyed at The Guardian largely because it is such a dump solution - private schools

[Dlwch276]

So as part of their recent excessive coverage of a book which attacked the private school system (written by someone who went to private school) The Guardian has suggested adding VAT to school fees.

Asides raising more money via tax i don't see how this would make the system fairer? From what I've seen the logic is that parents who are motivated to pay £20k+ on fees would force state schools to improve if their children attended them. Mumsnet is full of posters at their wits ends trying to affect change at their local state schools. No-one that I've met at our small private is wringing their hands that the local state schools are terrible and that this gives their children extra advantage.

Surely to improve educational equality either we all need to pay more tax to change class sizes or poorer students need better access to private education. In NZ private schools receive the same student allowance as state schools - wouldn't this be a better solution for students not able to access private education? For everyone to sit the entrance exam and then private schools to have to accept the student allowance as fees for those who can't afford it?

Where do you live @gamerwidow because here and many across the country are not.

Not sure if you have had a chance to read the book or not - I attended a recent seminar with the authors discussing it at LSE with a Q&A at the end - it was a great event. I say that as someone considering private school for future children.

Its important to note the book does not vilify those making the choice to send kids to private schools, but that access to private schools is not largely accessible due to cost. The guardian seems to have taken its own conclusions from the book

FiveRedBricks South East where are you?

@gamerwidow I think you need to step out of your bubble 😂

Oh wow that's tickled me.

FiveRedBricks my view isn’t that out dated. Previous posters have already talked about their ‘peers’ being an important factor of why to use private school. To be fair at 8k a year we’re hardly talking about the top options anyway.

Also vat on 8k would hardly make a dent to in your income if it’s that important to you.....

In my town, the private schola that are under £10k a year or so are offering little more than the good comp and GCSEs results are only slightly better or not for others. There is ONE private school that is a class above from all aspect, ut its £10k à term !

The first will have demographics very similar to the local comps, the latter will have a majority of very high earners with only a very small minority who would have got in with a bursary that is only available for exceptional talent (think national/international rather than local).

In my town, the private schola that are under £10k a year or so are offering little more than the good comp and GCSEs results are only slightly better or not for others. There is ONE private school that is a class above from all aspect, ut its £10k à term

I'm in Australia and see the same thing all the time. I roll my eyeballs at the numpties who skin themselves to send their children private then feel the need to call in the private tutors to make up the deficit.

That would be me.

WTAF. What are you paying your private school for? Why aren't the teachers good enough? You could have state teachers like me for nowt.

If everyone had to use state schools, everyone would be invested in making them good schools. People with more affluence & more political power would try hard to make state schools good schools. There are different strategies to achieve that mutual dependence.

My parents explained all that to me when I was a child. Not hard to understand.

What would being affluent bring to the table? Plenty of flash cars and skiing holidays at dss comp, not sure how many of those parents give a massive shit about the school as a whole. That sounds a bit naive.

If everyone had to use state schools there would be exceedingly expensive parts of the country with excellent state schools and poor areas with shit schools.

THe wealthy might have an incentive to improve the state school their child goes to but that state school would be virtually impossible for a poor child to get into because the poor child parents wouldn't be able to afford to live there. same situation as now really except the rich families aren't paying any fees.

You would have to overhaul the entire system for school places allocation while you're at it.

The problem is most people think Eton/Harrow/Westminster when they think private school. This is very far from the truth. Most private schools are just small independent education providers, which do not have the social status or networking of the public schools.

Additionally, why do we always default to the punishment ethos. No-one has highlighted the New Zealand model mentioned in the article. Give parents a tax break, and more parents will use the system, opening up to system to more, not less.

If all parents, including sharp elbowed upper middle class parents where all the state system, do you think they will put up with the badly behaved, or additional needs pupils pulling down their own children. I think not. They will request that they are moved to "special" schools.

Finally, be careful what you wish for. Most nursery and pre-schools are private. If you add VAT to one, you have to add it to the other.

The whole thing about Private schools being charities is bunkum.

Less than 1% of students in private schools are given a full free ride and over 50% of bursaries and scholarships are given to students who are paying more than 50% of the fee.

Everyone on MN will say how wonderful their own school is, but that's bunkum too.

The state system would probably easily manage an increase of 7% spread throughout the country.

When you remove your child to the private system you are not "saving money" for a school in the state system. In fact you impact it in two ways. One the school doesn't get the per capita money for your child, and two you then receive what the state would have spent on your child back via your tax free education.

Private education is a luxury good and should be taxed accordingly.

BTW the average Private school fee is £18,000 PA. Which means that your average kid's on a scholarship parents are paying, on average, over £9k for the fees per year, p[lus the other expenses.

Please don't pretend its some kind of philanthropy either, many of these scholarships and bursaries are given to the younger siblings of children already paying full fees.

It's not my job as an engaged parent to whip my kids school into shape. Our local state school is brilliant but if it was shite then that would be for paid professionals to sort out, not me.

It's one step away from saying send your bright kids to crap schools so they can do the teaching.

One the school doesn't get the per capita money for your child, and two you then receive what the state would have spent on your child back via your tax free education

Ehhh???
Of course it doesn't because Dc aren't there, I am NOT receiving anything additional from the state, I am already paying in my general taxation towards education, which I am not availing myself of. So I am actually paying for something I am not using, not getting an additional benefit at all. If you like, you could argue it cancels out, but you cannot argue an additional benefit.

"am NOT receiving anything additional from the state"

That's not the way state funding works, you don't get to pick and choose which bits you benefit from and don't benefit from. It isn't a pay in get out system.

Essentially not paying tax on private school fees is being given a subsidy to educate your children privately.

Boris Are you therefore advocating that VAT should be added to all educational fees?

In an ideal world, I would lie to see an end to private schools. Realistically, that’s not going to happen. And as I said, I am assured that removing their charitable status is legislatively impossible. So VAT is the perfect solution.

Easy to exempt nurseries abs pre schools. VAT on statutory school age fees only.

"So I am actually paying for something I am not using"

No you are not.

You don't choose where your tax pounds go.

Does that mean everyone who doesn't have kids should get a tax break because they don't use the school system?

"Are you therefore advocating that VAT should be added to all educational fees?"

I'm advocating VAT should be added to a luxury good like private education.

Not doing so is essentially a subsidy for the most wealthy in the country.

What would being affluent bring to the table
If MPs had to send their kids to state school they’d be a lot more invested in not making massive cuts to the education budget and dicking about with the curriculum.
The very wealthy might be less inclined to avoid taxes if they knew their children’s schools would suffer too.
People with a new build and a Range Rover probably not so influential in fairness.

I am BAFFLED by the theory that state schools should be forced to improve by importing loads of ex-private-school pupils whose highly motivated parents will "put pressure on" the state schools to improve.

There are ALREADY plenty of highly motivated parents with kids in the state system. Sending your kids to state school is not an indication that you don't care about their education.

And what can these highly motivated parents achieve by way of improving the state schools, exactly? What is the mechanism for doing this? There are threads here every day highlighting the powerlessness of parents in the state system.

How about putting the responsibility for improving state schools where it belongs: with the government which micromanages and underfunds them?

DorindaLestrange the government that mismanages and under funds then largely sends their kids to private school or is a product of private school. Would focus the mind a bit of their kids and grandkids had to go to the state schools too, no?

Yes it was interesting that private schools have been allowed to keep the easier IGCSE ( which was easier than the old GCSE too) whilst state schools have been forced to adopt the new harder GCSE.

Funny that the majority of private schools had their kids take the EBAC subjects in IGCSE too.