To be annoyed at The Guardian largely because it is such a dump solution - private schools

[Dlwch276]

So as part of their recent excessive coverage of a book which attacked the private school system (written by someone who went to private school) The Guardian has suggested adding VAT to school fees.

Asides raising more money via tax i don't see how this would make the system fairer? From what I've seen the logic is that parents who are motivated to pay £20k+ on fees would force state schools to improve if their children attended them. Mumsnet is full of posters at their wits ends trying to affect change at their local state schools. No-one that I've met at our small private is wringing their hands that the local state schools are terrible and that this gives their children extra advantage.

Surely to improve educational equality either we all need to pay more tax to change class sizes or poorer students need better access to private education. In NZ private schools receive the same student allowance as state schools - wouldn't this be a better solution for students not able to access private education? For everyone to sit the entrance exam and then private schools to have to accept the student allowance as fees for those who can't afford it?

Private schools selectively intake the brightest pupils with the pushiest parents. And then spend many thousands of £ on each and every one of them (the £ that their parents are paying).

They aren't actually doing much or achieving much. They are just quietly getting on with spending unusual amounts on an individual's education. I honestly cannot see why people think they are so great ??

Surely we need to celebrate comprehensive schools, their pupils and supporters, who get children through the 11-16 or 11-18 age group and into jobs and careers and getting on in life. Underfunded schools are still managing this - they are the schools that deserve our admiration. Not the ones with bright kids and squillions of VAT exempt cash in the coffers.

So what is all that money being spent on? What is it that money can buy?

Exactly Olennaswimple. You make that point 100 times better than me.

I got a music bursary to go to a private school 6th form (previously I'd always attended state schools.)

It's a long time back but IIRC many of the pupils who were partially or wholly funded under the Assisted Places scheme (as it was back then) still came from reasonably affluent backgrounds, but were from larger families.

What would happen is that when their first child joined the school the parents would pay full fees but when the second and third child joined they'd become eligible for financial aid.

So when private schools sometimes talk about how egalitarian they are by pointing out the number of pupils they have who get help with fees I do wonder how many of those are actually from poor backgrounds and how many are just from bigger families. Dunno how you'd find out those figures though.

The charitable status of many private schools connected to charitable estates is very dubious

A few small bursaries given but it keeps the schools elitist and many private schools want to stay this way - I wonder how the costs for boarders from abroad (which is hugely costly) is taxed

The people objecting to VAT being charged on school fees are either people who use the private school system or would like to.

Those that do not see it as an unfair exemptions from the tax system.

Not me. None of our family have ever been in a position to use private schools and neither would we want to. I really don't like what they stand for. However, as I outlined in my earlier post, I don't think it's fair to add VAT for those who want to use them (and can afford it, obviously).

Ascribing emotions to those who support the VAT on private schooling is beside the point.

A private school is like a personal car. No-one expects to have their car subsidised for their not going on the PT systems.

Same.

The fact the bitter tend to forget is that parents who don't send their children to state schools are saving the state money

So that's why they do it. Bless.

Whether to abolish private schools, get parents to pay VAT to bring more taxes to supported state schools, or encourage more bursaries for certain group of kids is pointless because at the end of it, you'll still have adults who will say they wouldn't be where they are if they'd gone to a state school, others who will say that they would be exactly in the same place if they had, whether being successful or not, so that it was a waste of time, doctors who will say they went to an average state school and that didn't stop them getting four offers to go Medical School and others who struggled with issues who would have suffered just the same if privately educated.

The reality is that whether we decide to send our kids to be privately educated and really struggle to do so, or decide they will do fine at the local comp, no parent can know whether they made the best decision for the outcome. It's a choice we make based on our beliefs and one we have to live with, nothing more.

Well as someone who both attended and taught at private and state, my experience was that state was far superior in both respects..hated experience at private as a student and teacher.
Each to their own i guess. I think state school students have to work harder for their success but that is no bad thing. I have met state school allumini who are far more succesful than myself.

YABU - private schools need to lose their ‘charity’ status too imho. Boarding schools are the ones that need to go.

My arguments against private school is that it is a hot house for the elite. The culture is toxic as your ability to fit in depends on if mum and dad earns lots.

As a teacher at actop 30,000 a year Catholic school i wasn't allowed to give detentions as ' our children are perfect.' Worst behaved bunch of kids ive ever taught. I was filmed in lessons and slt did nothing. My class of 12 was harder to teach than my class of 30 in the comp.
There was a culture of fear in the classroom. Parents expected blood even if their child just didnt gave it academically as rhey were paying so much. Im sorry but if your child dosn't 'have it' 30, 000 a year aint going to make them Einstein.
So i feel no envy or bitterness...just incredibly smug that dd is going to state and i have not fallen for the private svhool con.
Having said that a bad state school is hellish too. We need to pour funding into those. Perhaps vat is a good idea.

Sorry for typos..

It’s not totally unreasonable to have VAT as in a way it is a ‘luxury’. I’m not sure if private medical care has VAT.

But I don’t think financially it would work. There would be fewer low cost private schools and a lower tax intake as only a small number of wealthy people would be left there. Combine this with a large influx into the state system. Plus - no guarantee as to what govt would do from the VAT intake from schools - no guarantee it would be put into education rather than railways, hospital etc.

But the people who did send their kids to private school but moved to state would then have more disposable income to spend in other stuff. It is difficult to see what they would spend it on.Maybe some would go on private tuition or on a more expensive house near a good school but unlikely to be funding their local comp.

Furthermore there is HUGE variation across the state sector. Look at results of super selective vs local comp in good area vs local comp in poor area. I guess the parents of kids who did go private would push out poorer kids in grammars and the better comps.

Of course you're going to see it as unfair if you have to pay more, and you'll draw some quite convoluted circles to justify this.

There is always a cutoff between those who could and couldn't afford. With tax on school fees that will just be a bit higher up.

Looking at the shape of our economy, especially after March, I can't blame Corbin for looking at where he can find a new income stream that will be seen as justifiable by a big majority of voters.

I'm not against private and would consider but would accept the fact that it's a luxury and should be taxed as such.

Weird Corbyn autocorrect?

To create a more level playing field I've always felt private schools should get the same funding as state and then the extra fees be a declared top up.

Some good state schools are effectively charging fees, my elder boys academy appear to be requesting money for many things that used to be taken for granted I.e. course books. Whilst these continually requested top ups are currently voluntary I wonder how far away we are from having state school top up fees.

My local primary, attended by my youngest, is in a very poor area. Lots of fresh non English language immigrants (who tend to stay for KS1 get established, learn the language and move out to nicer areas) and very high free school meals. They have a problem in some classes with enough children to model appropriate behaviour and this makes it really hard work for the teachers.

The FSM funding having to be segregated and allocated to its intended specific cohort creates further seperation within the classes and continually throws children together who may benefit from having their horizons broadened by mixing with a larger group.

"It’s not totally unreasonable to have VAT as in a way it is a ‘luxury’. I’m not sure if private medical care has VAT."

I know I post this a lot, but VAT is not/not a luxury tax. It is the EU's general consumption/purchase tax.

EU thinks it is unreasonable to tax education in schools and universities (as the regs stand, it is the same one that keeps university fees VAT free). We can change this after Brexit.

I have no doubt that all those who think Indy schools should have charity status removed or think fees should have VAT paid are simply jealous that they can't afford it but would jump at the chance to use the system if they had the means
Yes it’s all just jealously no need for any of your guys to examine your contribution to society, phew.
Not sure about VAT to be honest but private schools should definitely lose their charitable status. They are businesses and the amount of public benefit they offer to the general population is piddling compared to the social division they create.

Apparently it’s impossible to remove charitable status from private schools. Nobody can, I assume, justify that status- it’s just legislatively difficult to remove it.

Imposing VAT seems a sensible and pragmatic way to redress the situation.

There’s not going to be a mass exodus of private school kids into state if parents have to pay VAT either. These schools are businesses if no one can afford to come to their school they will reduce their fees rather than shut down if they have any sense.

"I don't think you've thought through the fact that removing charitable status makes them less accessibleI"

It actually makes then totally inaccessible.

Under the law as it stands, there is no way to turn assets owned by charities into private ones (huge scope for abuses across the charitable sector if there were), and if a charity was not deemed to be actually a charity, then it has to closeeverything be sold off at full market value, and the proceeds be donated to a similarly-aimed charity.

Charging of fees by charities for services is normal and legal.

Provision of education is a legal charitable aim (and changing that would be strongly resisted by the major charities not want to find styles of their work excluded from their charitable activities).

Before the NI hikes of the late 90s, private school fees were much more affordable. That might have been a blip (it is certainly anomalous if you look at a longer history) but it is beginning to look more like a settled trend.

@herethereeandeverywhere. Great name. One of my friends had awful time in private school being bullied. Her parents removed her and sent her to my comp where she settld made friends and was not bullied. Think it depends on the school. Not answering ops comment as i went to a comp so dont know about private school apart from what my friend said and that wasnt good. Alot of showing off about money.